Thief - Dagger/Pistol

Are Pirate Runes actually commonly run? After the Nerf wouldn't Ogre/Scholar/Strength be much better choices. DantesS_P (talk) 22:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The bird still has a huge HP and hits 1k+ which is huge. I think they are equally good. --Hanz (talk) 18:22, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Critical Strikes Major Traits[edit]

These traits are so very dependent on Player Preference it really doesn't matter which one we main bar. I've had arguments about which are the best CS traits for D/P since Winter of 2012. I'm fine with leaving Critical Haste on the main bar but Caed is not the singular authority on all things D/P Thief. The basis of the build are very old and though he may have popularized the Trickery Variant. Emphasizing a variants use because a top streamer preference is not a good reason to main bar it. --DantesS_P (talk) 23:07, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

What criteria is better when organizing the main bar if not the leading streamer? xP I'm sorta jk, but that being said, the build is overall more focused on burst damage, so providing the max burst and offering alternatives for survivability makes more sense to me than showing a balanced version. (Since it's not a balanced build, in this case) I would've switched ogre to scholar's as well, but I figured "eh, caed." Chase (talk) 23:47, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Scholar isn't that good in this meta with how difficult it is to maintain the 90% bonus. You go into backstab something and are usually forced to walk into a Warrior's Combustion Shot losing your scholar bonus. Pirate only gives a Parrot thing when you are being attack and doesn't help you when you are bursting down an opponent. Ogre's is the rune of choice for myself and many other thieves because the percentile bonus is unremovable and the all the other bonuses are useful. We shouldn't say this on the main page but this build is actually incredible in 1v1s which is why you see Caed and many other thieves rush far at the start of a match. Everytime I've queued against Caed he immediately rushd Far and unless we counter comped him or I went god mode on my Ranger he usally won it. Ogre runes are the best for this because they have the least amount of weaknesses. --DantesS_P (talk) 23:27, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I think the build is fine as it is, except for yeah, Critical Haste. Maybe swap it for Signet use and incude CH as variant? --Hanz (talk) 08:47, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Not only caed, but the "how to play" guy is also using it at the very bottom xP. I don't know about the other streamer cuz he hasn't listed it. If we're changing it, probably just roll it back to Practiced Tolerance. Chase (talk) 13:19, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Why main bar Sigil of Blood over Sigil of Fire? The damage is less and it will only heal you for 453 every 5s (the Heal only scales with healing power). Damage wise it should deal around 609 armor ignoring damage. While Sigil of Fire should deal around 784 on a 2600 armor opponent and then go up from there with damage multipliers. A celestial ammy Ele will have 2338 armor and sigil of fire will deal around 709 as a base. Then with damage multipliers of 4%(Ogre), 10%(Lead Strike), and 10%-15%(Lead Attacks) will deal around 892/932. This is with me assuming no buffs and a average weapon damage of 923 for dagger (it's weird it's not exotic or ascended weapon damage in tPvP). Against a Soldier Amulet Warrior with 3126 armor it's around 530 as a base and with damage multiplier it's 667/697. So still higher against a high armor opponent so the only reason you would want Sigil of Blood is for the Healing. Which is an HPS of 90 which is kinda pointless as a D/P Thief since you shouldn't be relying on sustain. --DantesS_P (talk) 17:38, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree about Sigil of Blood being an odd choice. Generally, I only see it in dueling specs. On a sidenote, I was considering adding the Panic Strikes variant of the D/P build, but I'm not sure whether it should be an entirely new page or not? I'm not sure how popular it is so I can't really tell whether it deserves a full page. 1c7 (talk) 18:49, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
+1 for the sigil change. Btw I don't think panic strike is popular at all. You'd have to give up too many mandatory traits in favor of the Deadly Arts line and I don't think it's worth it.--Hanz (talk) 19:02, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I've seen people run it more with the p/d spec than d/p, but yeah it should be a separate build then, probably get a "good" rating at best I'm guessing, I don't think it's "great" worthy. we should have variety though, things will change in the future, and who knows which of our good builds will excel later? Chase (talk) 21:43, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
@ Sigil of Blood: I was so very, very sure it had a 2 second ICD compared to the 5 on fire making it higher single target damage and better life sustain. I guess it's actually 5 seconds then? Also armor ignoring favors it against the tankier meta developing out of guardians/hambow warriors in NA. I've had better success with it than without, considering thief is shifting away from team fights anyhow with the d/p spec being more and more aligned with crushing a singular opponent as fast as possible (burst spec basically) Chase (talk) 21:47, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Edit: What I'm basically saying, is if I'm choosing D/P over S/D then I'm choosing sigil of blood cuz I'm choosing it for the burst single-target aspect anyhow ;) Chase (talk) 21:48, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Well according to the math a Sigil of Fire is still higher burst damage against an enemy with high armor like a Soldier Hambow Warrior. And even an AH Bunker Guard which is the tankiest opponent in the meta game you will deal a 506 base and with damage modifiers 637/665 which is still higher than Sigil of Blood. The only time you won't be dealing more damage with Sigil of Fire is against something with Protection. And if your trying to 1v1 burst an AH Guard with a high uptime of protection. You are doing many things wrong before even looking at your gear. And the damage of Sigil of Fire doesn't go down if it hits multiple opponets. Again just because a popular streamer like Caed runs a build X way doesn't mean it's the best way to run that build. Sorry but I'm going to be a little bit anal about D/P Thief, I've been playing D/P since basically launch and if we get any build correct on this Wiki it will be D/P Thief. --DantesS_P (talk) 22:17, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
That's the spirit! :D Btw due to Blood stealing health, obviously it should deal less damage than Air or Fire. --Hanz (talk) 22:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I have also been playing D/P since launch ;) I made a mistake about the 2 second ICD which would definitely have put it above fire. That's all. Obviously fire is very good in team fights ^_^ So it's a good catch, thank you Chase (talk) 00:17, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Panic Strike[edit]

It's getting nerfed so lets see how common it is post patch. But it should be it's on separate build page because it's honestly not as strong as a Trickery Thief and would probably get a different rating if it was separate. --Human icon.png Dantes (talk) 03:14, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

We can just be honest and say it's not as strong. Though to be fair, I think it's quite powerful to stop a player getting on to point. If the play style is different enough then we should probably create a diff build perhaps. I kinda like combining most of them together. It's still gonna be a burst build if it's 6XXX6 with D/P just less bursty and potentially more controlly. Definitely interested to see how it functions after the patch. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 13:51, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


I know this sounds ridiculous but I've been testing all the weaponsets on 20066 for the condi cleanse and extra evades. They all seem to work fine against 1v1s and team fights. It also provides the most mobility trait wise so you can still get around fast. Basically what I'm trying to say is, you can still get good burst upwards 6-7k on 20066 on D/P but get more survivability. It's one of those, not meta, but not bad kinda things. What do I do about this? Also for sure try it out, kinda cool xP « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 14:21, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I started using 2/0/0/6/6 with d/p over the critical strikes build. Gotta say that I like it a lot more. Extra dodges and blinds w/ withdraw makes for good sustain. That and the constant swiftness make it to where if I can't win a fight, I can always escape and become a +1 elsewhere. Feel like with critical strikes if you can't burst them down then it's a 50/50 if you'll be able to escape/sustain a fight without them downing you. Whereas with this build it's much harder to get downed. Still do enough damage to burst squishes too, so I don't really see any need for more damage. Dunno, maybe will see a need for the extra dps after playing with it longer. --Midi (talk) 17:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Black powder[edit]

Since September 9th, black powder only applies every 2s, making it ineffective for stomping because the blind now very often goes on the auto-attack. To solve this, I would advise either using heartseeker on top of it for stealth AND blind (but we may not have the initiative), or using something else.

Valid point. Made some changes to the usage part. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 13:18, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Split both variants to separate build pages[edit]

I would vote to split this build into two separate ones. Then we can move crit strikes version to great or archive it. The panic strikes is truly better simply for the condi removal, lessens our counters, provides better counters to classes we already wreck (withdraw vs shatter mesmers using sword is great or ranger with entangle, regardless, the instant stealth and removing of immob is too helpful). So really I'm all for splitting them, the usage is different as well.

Panic strikes (imo) benefits from BP and auto attacks and starting with dp3 shadowshot for the condi application. The build also benefits from stacking stealth for longer times, to clear condis as well as enhance the "surprise" factor. Still does good damage, does excellent with another zerk ammy counterpart to help burst. The immob is devastating to some classes including engi with condi clear on cd. The 25% stealth+insta condi remove helps greatly for when running away. Much more survivable while keeping a very good portion of the damage. Can use withdraw (which has a higher HPS coefficient) because it can clear poison / other condis in stealth. Keeps the best part of dps and perma stealth build while using the required 6 in trickery for stab steal counters.

Crit strikes version attempts to keep things above 6 initiative (at least it should if it's trying to do really good dps), has no condi clear and always loses against d/d ele/lb warrior when it can't clear the fire from HiS or Shadowstep. And imo should be archived (it's a great build imo, but not as great as panic strike from my testing). Crit strikes almost requires HiS for it's heal to clear the poison/fire. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 19:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

The reason why I did not split them before is because my own unwritten policy is the following: if less than 5 skills are different and the only difference comes from traits i just add it as a variant (so an enire weapon set or utilities and an off hand weapon and such combinations). The only true difference skill-wise is the heal and sometimes not even that. But you're right about how the PS version is a lot more popular/better in the current meta. As a short-term solution I've moved Panic Strike to the top and labeled it as meta. If we split it we might have to split other builds too like Double Kit engi, Power ranger etc. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 20:21, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
Okay, based on this, I feel like going through the usage again to highlight things that work better on PS and others that might help CS will be a good idea. Soon(TM). « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 20:57, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Been a month, still thinking we should probably split or delete the CS variant. Personally I prefer an archived CS variant which is listed in the intro or in a See Also section. This way we can clean up the sigils section by mainbarring rage over fire and clean up the trait tables etc. It's not hard to link to an archived build page throughout the guide like "if conditions are not a problem and more damage is wanted the [CS variant]() might interest you" etc « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 15:29, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Just a quick update, I'm feeling sick atm :/ Will catch up on stuff some days later when I get better. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 18:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
roger that. rest up and hope you get well soon! « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 03:28, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Idk, I still really don't want to split this build tbh. I know there are people who are specifically looking for the CS version because that's the more "classic" one and there are good streamers who still use it and keep it somewhat alive. The differences aren't that big, 1 heal, sometimes 1 sigil, and the traits. If we split this we have to split many other builds as well. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 17:36, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
People can find the CS version if we just link to it in the introduction. I don't think that will be hard to do. What would be the other builds that would require splitting? Just out of curiousity I could then perhaps undersatnd where the "threshold" is for splitting pages or keeping them together. I can think of power ranger off the top of my head which has had i think 4 or 5 different trait variations at some point xP « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 21:17, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Traits don't affect the playstyle as much as skills, so if the build has at least 1 different weapon set, or any combination of 5 different core skills (at least) then i usually split it. If it's just traits, I usually don't really split it. But I'm not a thief expert, so if the playstyle between the 2 trait tables is different enough then we could split it. Other candidates would be power ranger and double kit condi engi. Hmm that's not that much afterall. Well we could split this and the double kit one, because the secondary trait tables fell out of use, but keep the power ranger traits on the same page. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 07:28, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Or idk.. it doesn't hurt to have them on the same page I think xP --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 14:31, 3 April 2015 (UTC)


I think we should cut the length of the usage part a bit, especially the counter/stolen skills sections. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 16:23, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree. There are some redundancies such as "Shadow Refuge Shadow Refuge can be used on downed party members to prevent a finish." is listed twice. The combo info on the Warrior: Whirling Axe stolen skill is unnecessary. However I do appreciate the level of detail and it's a great guide for new and experienced thieves. For instance I didn't know about the "Look down on your character" to increase the amount of heartseakers you can combo out of the black powder skill --Tronjeremy (talk) 07:36, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
I will clean it up and remove duplicate information and link to the wiki when possible « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 13:51, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Marauder vs Zerker[edit]

Im curious to know your reasoning behind taking Marauder over zerk. I've tested both and i find the zerker is more of fitting to the ideal playstyle this build has. Goal: Extreme mobility allows rotating anywhere to 1 man up team fights, down the 50% players with HEAVY burst. We must "avoid" bursts at all costs, with either amulets. Its kill fast or be killed fast. The extra damage with zerk helps with the "surprise mofugga" type of play this build needs to be efficent. Sacraficing some of that for vit means you wont that extra bit of damage it may have needed to down your the target before you become the target (aka run and stealth outta teamfight). both amulets youll still be too squishy to risk even one hit, just one will hit harder.. Ive noticed the loss of vit, but while running zerk it still seems like the mobility of this build still provides the option to escape. either way, our goal is to quickly do as much damage as possible before getting targeted, teleport away, disappear and regen / rotate. The extra Vitality doesn't seem to really giving you much favor in that play style. im no expert on thief, but we know the playstyle is about speed, so isnt the investment in sustain going to sacrificing our speed? --Filthi

Dead men do no damage. With 11.5k hp and 2k armor people don't have to focus you, they look at you and you're already respawning. Zerker hp is basically 1 shatter and half a mirror blade, not counting sigil procs. And then obviously it'll suck even more against condi builds. Don't forget to use your signature btw, there is a button for it above the ext box while commenting. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 14:10, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Hidden Thief + Mug[edit]

Issue with MUG and Hidden Thief here pls: --Magira (talk) 14:54, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

That video is from before the patch. Secondly, I was not able to reproduce this error. I tried 25+ times. If you can reproduce it yourself, please post the video so we can analyze this potential problem further. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 16:59, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I'm doing somethign wrong but, is this bug supposed to happen when you sue the combo Black Powder, heartseeker and Steal? I get reveaed like half of the time. If it is the actual issue I'll do a video and upload it. Otherwise the Build information should be changed to the right combo after the patch change of having stealth on steal. --Warrior Icon Color.png Billaboong (billa-talk) 23:19, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
That one SHOULD get you revealed. Stupidly people are not understanding that you can now heartseeker + steal for the same effect without losing any initiative. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 02:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Actually that will reveal you (just tried ingame). the stelath comes as you Steal and then you land the damage. The build should tehrefore tell that you should Steal without using any skill and use them AFTER you are stealthed. --Warrior Icon Color.png Billaboong (billa-talk) 19:40, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Requires timing. I'm not having any issues with reveal whatsoever « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 21:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Alternatives for Blinding Powder[edit]

I think Blinding Powder should have alternatives listed. Those running critical strikes might prefer the extra dps and condi clear from Signet of Agility (BP doesn't clear condi's without SA), or the gapcloser/stunbreak of Infiltrator's signet. Infiltrator's signet in particular I think is a reasonable alternative even on the SA build for its use as a gapcloser. --Midi (talk) 12:43, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

The thing is (im my opinion at least) infiltrator signet is about the only option other than BP. it probably should be there since it is mentioned in the usage. the rest of the skills that could make a decent alternative have cooldowns making the effect almost lackluster. an example would be haste or roll for initiative. both with long cool downs for the effect they give, i hope i posted this correctly.--ZD6MD (talk) 07:44, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Full signets variant[edit]

Maybe a stupid question... I like passive effects, so if I want a more 1v1 spec, may I change to Signets of Malice, Assassin, Agility and Shadow (faster capture on teamfights, might also be useful to reach the enemy when you have a limited stealth duration)? The preceding unsigned comment was added by Farbas (talk • contribs) .

You shouldn't have more than 1 signet in PvP at a time. Blinding Powder is optional (though it's also the optimal choice when using Shadow Arts), you could swap it for Infiltrator's Signet. Then, while I'd not recommend doing this, you could replace Shadowstep with
Signet of Agility Signet of Agility
Signet of Agility
Signet Passive: Grants increased precision.
Signet Active: Refills endurance and cure a condition for each nearby allies.
Signet of Agility.pngPassive Effect: 180 Precision
Book.pngConditions Removed: 1
Book.pngEndurance Gain: 100
Book.pngNumber of Targets: 5
Radius.pngRadius: 360
if you really really wanted to, but the other signets are just worthless, Signet of Malice is one of the worst PvP heals and Signet of Shadows is definitely bottom tier too (you should have at least 50% swiftness uptime which is superior to the signet's movement speed boost, then you have shortbow too so mobility should never be an issue). I hope this helps :) Also in general if you want to 1v1, don't play thief. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 19:40, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Actually, if you're talking about using Steal to get swiftness, I think that's the worst idea ever, this is a great skill to begin a fight, so keeping it permanently under CD... :/ The preceding unsigned comment was added by Farbas (talk • contribs) .
It's not like your swiftness goes anywhere when the fight ends :P And if there are eles, bunker/dps guards or shoutbows around you'll get a lot of swiftness from them too while in the fight. Vamp rune is getting nerfed next week, so chances are Pack rune is coming back too. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 12:57, 17 October 2015 (UTC)