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Team - Traditional S/F LH

Page created[edit]

Group formatting is a bit messed up, I'm not really sure about the right way there so I'll leave that to the pros.

Fixed the table, if that's what you ment :D-- Galaxian (talk) 20:11, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Nah, I already figured it. But thanks. I see the numbers on other dungeon page too, do we really need it? Blackie (talk) 20:17, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
I guess not, I added another table without the numbers and you guys can decide which one to keep.-- Galaxian (talk) 20:19, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Elementalist skill bars[edit]

Whats the best combination of skill bars here? Says both are supposed to use Frost Bow, I'm assuming the skill bar then might be Lightning Hammer + Frost Bow + Glyph of Storms for S/F ele and Signet of Fire + Frost Bow + Glyph of Storms for Staff elementalist. Seen that bar used in some speed clears and rotation w/o LH is complicated for an S/F ele. Dunno reallyBlackie (talk) 19:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

It would really depend on the fight which bar is best for S/F actually, some fights require you to bring LH in order to maintain good DPS over time others are over in a flash. Blackie (talk) 19:51, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Let me reiterate here: Under no circumstance should an ele run s/f lh in speedclears anymore. The reason is that the might stacking should be left to the war and guard (if one is in the party, the guard should have a staff at handy and swap to gs for the fight). A staff ele doing the correct might stack rotation will give 9 might at the beginning of the fight. So the correct rotation for a (skilled) staff ele should be as follows: Earth (2), Water (2), Fire (2), Heal, <- To stack might before fight. When two eles does this that's 18 might, 2 warbanners on top of that is 24 might. When fight begins one ele should switch to Air attunement and cast glyph of storms, then frostbow 5 and then 4 or other way around depending on boss mobility. The other ele should stay in fire and cast Fire (5), (3), (2), frostbow (4), Switch to air and glyph of storms. This is the best rotation and if done right should sustain 25 might and 25 vuln for the period of the fight. For longer fights the ele rotation should be kept as tight as possible. --Chibiko (talk) 17:44, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Good luck keeping 25 might with double staff ele and no PS warrior for fights that last longer than 20s. (3) is redundant if the target already has burning (you mentioned guardian), swapping out of fire when on staff ele isn't an option once the fight has started which means the rotation is earth 2 -> glyph in air -> fire 2. --Abe
Yes, 3 is redundant if target is burning. And if you catched my other comment here, you'll see that I am talking about a ps/ea war 2 ele comp. The "Standard Dungeon Meta" was scrapped when the might nerf happened. You'll see that in recent speedruns where fights last <20 sec then the war runs an ea only build. While >20 sec the war runs ps/ea to sustain 25 might. Regarding the switch to air. If the elementalist rotates well you are looking at a very minimal cooldown in air. The rotation to air should be timed with picking up the second icebow. Before picking up icebow switch to air and do the icebow rotation then glyph of storms, back to fire. <- that is assuming the fight is long (for speedclears this is not necessary, nor should the fight last that long as to warrant doing it). In speedclears if an engi is present then there is no reason to use the glyph of storms in air at all. For reference I suggest you look at DnT's latest record Arah speedrun, there they demonstrate the current meta pretty well.--Chibiko (talk)
The meta is represented well with the current arah records, I don't see any DnT records in the arah table, nor do I see a majority of PS record runs. All records held at the moment except from P4 are using a staff+S/F elementalist. P4 works well with Phalanx because of longer fights and more difficulty to sustain 25 might. I still fail to see your point as to why Phalanx is now the ONLY meta, I agree that Phalanx Strength comp is a very strong comp for casual runs and for records where fights draw out longer than 20s, but if you haven't noticed, most records are still using staff ele+S/F ele for a reason. Also picking up the second ice bow and then swapping to air is bad:
  • You lose the modifier from fire
  • After ice bow you'll still have a 3-4s cooldown on fire where you have to use niche attacks
  • If the first ele uses his glyph at the start of the fight and the second uses his after ice bow is off cooldown there will be a 10s gap where the boss has a shortage on vulnerability --Abe
Where did you get the 10 sec gap from? Wow. I'm having the same discussion with Chase on my page. He tells me to respect you, Abe. I do, it's just both of you seem very obsessed with how your view of the perfect meta should be. In all honesty, SC had some nice records. The only records you hold that are valid now is as part of the [Yet] coalition in the fractals, and as far as I am aware neither of the eles use the s/f lh there (except for stacking might then switching to staff). There are two valid speedruns I know of that use the old dungeon meta, one is LOD and the other is by Qt. DnT's p2 run has a ps/ea war and 2 thieves and 1 ele. P4, which you are right about is iV and they now use the ps/ea meta, they also did for the newest SE p3 record today. Stay updated Abe, here in EU we got the right of it since might nerf patch. The s/f lh meta is no more.
Wasn't sure what you meant by losing modifier from fire. I understand you meant the 10% damage modifier. The ele doing the swap to air should run a 6602 build so that isn't an issue. And I understand now what you meant by a 10 sec gap. The gap is not 10 sec. It's much shorter because the swap to air happens before the second ele picks up the 2nd frostbow. We are talking a gap of 5 sec. and this gap can be filled by a war doing the right rotations, plus incidental vuln from others like thief c&l or ranger WD or RapidF. Finally the 3-4 sec is usually a non-issue since the 11 sec gap can be filled with channeling GoS, FB 4, 5, 2, and 3. 2-3 autoattacks with fb 1 doesn't hurt either, since fights are usually not where a team is inefficient. --Chibiko (talk) 10:02, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
You tell me to stay updated to the meta, yet you keep using DnT's Arah P2 as an example when the current record for that path is done by Hawt using a s/f ele and a staff ele. And the reason iV's SE P3 was faster was mostly because of the fact that their tactics were better. --Abe
My mistake there Abe, I mixed up two vids. Indeed p2 is run with a s/f lh ele (which I think they could have improved on by doing ps/ea with 2 staff, but that is my opinion). I talked with Chase and he agreed on maybe changing naming convention to not favor one build over the other. In Europe we use mainly ps/ea 2 staff, I realize some here still hold onto the s/f lh. Not gonna blame you for it, but if you care to, do some math and you'll see it's inefficient. I only play on NA servers occasionally and don't care too much how you guys do it. Didn't want to start a big argument, just got a bit upset when I ran a fractal pug and these people I ran with was literally calling me stupid for not realizing the s/f lh full dps war was the best setup (it did not help that I kept having to ress everyone cuz they died like flies - I did the dps war role). That said I hope SC comes back with some new records soon. Most of them are quite old and what with the new nerfs it's a bit more challenging to beat the old ones.
I did do the napkin math, and with 25 might s/f staff beats double PS as long as the warrior is running 6/6/0/2 and the ele is running without Persisting Flames. There are many advantages with Phalanx, like being able to precast icebows etc so you can have it for all bosses, but for many paths I, among many others in EU and NA still see S/F+Staff as the superior setup for fights that don't draw out for very long. Right now there isn't much interest in records in our guild, but we are planning on some so hopefully there will be some of them soon. As I've mentioned, I'm not trying to say Phalanx is bad, because it is very strong- stronger than I would've liked, but oh well. Abe (talk) 20:46, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Name will probably be changed[edit]

In the future. I simply can't come up with something good for the DPS Warrior, Might Stacking Ele, Conjure Staff Ele combo just yet. I like the phalanx strength warrior team because it's clearly revolving around a single main aspect. This one at the least requires warrior + two eles. Any thoughts? « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 16:07, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

This is as close to an all dungeon-meta team composition as it gets. It's the equivalent of a "Balanced" GvG/HA build in GW1. That's what defines this build, how it's well rounded. Also as I keep saying, this is the name DNT is using for the build which means it's unlikely for another build to show up with the same name unless the standard-meta dungeon team undergoes very significant changes and this build is replaced. Blackie (talk) 17:12, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Wrote the last msg before I noticed what a mess the current page is. Please can we have one build per page?! If a build isn't worthy of it's own page then it isn't worthy of being here either. This page is, or at least should be specifically about a highly balanced variant of the double ele, warrior, guard, thief team composition who's advantage is that it's capable of clearing every single dungeon in game in an extremely efficient manner. And because of the SF elementalist you have swirling winds which allows this team to use the fastest kill strategies on certain bosses. Triple ele and ranger variants on the other hand are completely defenseless variants which has nothing to do with this build as this builds strongest point is it's increased defense over double staff. Likewise I had to add a fourth build here because it belongs here rather then on the double staff. And we can't have detailed usage sections for the builds which is probably be most crucial thing to the team builds at all. Using them correctly. Blackie (talk) 17:34, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
You write "This page is, or at least should be specifically about a highly balanced variant of the double ele, warrior, guard, thief team composition who's advantage is that it's capable of clearing every single dungeon in game in an extremely efficient manner." which it is. I've protected the page from further edits. If your party does nto require thief, you have a perfect comp right there on the same page. If you do not require a guard, a comp is available. This team comp is "traditional" but more and more people are using Phalanx way. If you would like recommend changes to be made, you will now have to talk on the discussion page or apply to be a dungeon admin. Please let me know what the fourth variant was and I'll try to add it. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 18:00, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
If you are referring to replacing the S/F LH might stacking Ele with an Engineer, all I can say is you lose sustained DPS and conjure dps and the mobility of two FGS. Where/why would that set up be better? « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 18:05, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

If EA then switch to Phalanx[edit]

This is basically what I understand from the note "64040 GS is superior to the pure axe for most things. Other though is that the meta is moving into a direction where you want double staff eles and a phalanx warrior (who has EA) or one staff one scepter and a DPS warrior. I would have a hard time recommending either of the EA builds as "meta" since no one is using them in casual fast groups or record runs." « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 18:13, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Ranger frost spirit stacking[edit]

Small technicality...If you have two rangers one can run without vigorous spirits, and the group can receive the effect from both. Spotter still doesn't stack, and losing one of the other classes is 100% a DPS loss (barring individual skill), so it's still not a great option, but there it is. Angela Ranna (talk) 00:07, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

That is a valid point. How should we incorporate it? I'm thinking something along the lines of "Double Ranger is similarly bad because the party receives a minimal DPS boost from a second Frost Spirit (without vigorous spirits) and Spotter won't stack. Neither can spec in such a way that replaces the DPS of a Thief, Elementalist, or Warrior nor the full utility of a Guard/Mesmer." « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 00:41, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, thing is, unless something has changed, ranger personal DPS is second only to warrior (and thief in strictly single-target fights), it's just group DPS where they fail. How about, "Double Ranger: Although a second ranger can run without Vigorous Spirits and the group will receive both Frost Spirit buffs, Spotter doesn't stack and rangers don't contribute much else to overall group DPS compared to a Warrior, Engineer, or Elementalist, or as much utility as a Guardian, Mesmer, or Thief. Angela Ranna (talk) 01:08, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
I like that, it works « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 02:07, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Nice idea with team metas, but...[edit]

...Maybe you know, maybe you don't.

These aren't the team metas anymore.

The DnT post is also, strange as it seems, outdated. Reess calculator is based on a spreadsheet with data from June 2014.

For the newest metas I suggest you look at DnT youtube vids or pay more attention to the forum posts.


EDIT: I'll clarify a bit. For background: I got tipped by someone I ran fractals 49 with today, they used the old meta posted here and kept saying stuff that made no sense about how ps/ea warrior is useless. I thought it strange and checked metabattle, saw that you have team metas and noticed the team I was running with was using the standard meta, but was missing a guard or ranger.

The current meta for speedruns is not terribly different from the one listed here. The difference is that current metas utilize a ps/ea warrior because there shouldn't be a S/F ele in the party anymore. The S/F ele is removed because the sacrifice of personal dps for might stacks is too big to warrant it. Instead the warrior who has a lower max dps should sacrifice more dps for might stacks. The current meta is two staff eles and a war running ps/ea. The two wildcards depend a lot on the situation, but ranger/thief/engi, and guard/(mes) is preferred. Thief is still preferred over ranger because of stealth. As far as I am aware there has not been done any new research on ranger dps (and it has been significantly improved).

If nothing else, the recent nerf of might, has also changed how you prioritize between vulnerability and might. Due to the vulnerability provided by an axe/gs is significantly lowered by the fact that the meta is now ps/ea, the two ele's in the party should make sure they rotate the glyph of storm properly as it should provide 25 vuln stacks per use, along with the war vuln stacks. Also a war should trait rending strikes if the vuln. stacks aren't kept at 25, if they are safe at 25 then the war should switch to Deep Strike.--Chibiko (talk)

Wat. Abe (talk) 16:57, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Name[edit]

Changed to "Traditional S/F LH" -- If there are any better suggestions we can move it again. I would prefer to call it by something that is "critical"/"essential" to the team build. IMO that is the DPS war, S/F LH, and Staff Ele which rarely swap out of variations of this team. Went with S/F LH because the other one is called Phalanx Strength, defining both teams by which profession is responsible for stacking might. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 19:29, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Standard Might Blasting? :D btw how do you rename a build? this needs to be renamed Fredor (talk) 22:32, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
What should it be changed to? Only admins can do it, sorry. PS - you need to put a space after the link or else it gets counted; I fixed it for you « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 23:29, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm guessing he wants it changed because it also includes scepter build and not only Gs Sw/f, but I couldn't think of any name that doesn't sound ridiculous that mentions both builds in a way.
uhh the page is working again. yeah you are right abe. something like dps support guardian? Better than gs|secpter/torch/focus - sword/mace/scepter|focus/torch guardian? ^^ Fredor (talk) 12:14, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Archive?[edit]

Should it be archived? --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 14:51, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, as of the specialization patch this team comp is only "viable", there is hardly a point for the warrior not to go into tactics and staff was buffed for god knows what reason thus making the comp outdated. --Abe
kk, done --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 19:58, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
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