Daredevil - Dagger/Pistol

Utility Skills[edit]

Shadow Refuge is proving to be more of a death trap than an aid to self or allies entering this new meta. Blinding Powder in Black Powder seems like a better choice since it has lower cool down, allows you to provide AoE stealth without SR or being confined to an area asking to be cleaved/nuked/revealed. It's also nice to be able to avoid damage while stealthing without having to try and evade using Disabling Shot without hitting the 2-3 enemy players stomping through your refuge. Infiltrator's signet is another alternative and the one listed initially, but after testing, I think it needs the stealth utility more. It also brings back combos we're used to doing with Hidden Thief in the previous meta. -- Impact.2780(talk) 20:37, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Impairing Daggers is another great utility to use over Signet of Agility. It helps for bursting down people and control. I find it to be an amazing spell for heavy nukes and CC. You can cast it from stealth (with bound for +10%) then use your regular Backstab+F1 combo. Daggers hits very hard and immobilize/slow/poison the enemy for a good amount of time. In most situations you will get your target at less than 50% with this opener, so with the immobilize kuna├» and Panic Strike trait, the target will never go away if he has no instant dispel, even more since one of the kuna├» inflict Slow. What do you guys think of this ? /discuss --Griffith (talk) 22:58, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Has anyone tried using Fist Flurry as their third utility skill? I've been experimenting with it and gotten good results. Testing on a medium armor golem it can hit up to 13k on one cast. That's without the +10% damage from bounding dodger or the +20% damage from executioner. Also, compared to Impairing Daggers it has a shorter 20s cooldown, and a faster cast to damage time (Impairing daggers casts at the end of 1/2 seconds, Fist Flurry casts immediately). Lastly it's pretty easy to setup for if you use Basilisk Venom (Actually kinda makes a CC chain as Palm Strike is a stun as well). --Midi (talk) 09:22, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
I feel it's pretty rare you'll land all 5 hits. Zyke (talk) 11:24, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Have you tried setting up for it? Getting off the full combo is like getting off two backstabs, it's worth setting up for. I haven't had much trouble getting off all five hits using Basilisk Venom or after waiting for dodges/defenses to be blown. --Midi (talk) 15:27, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Upgrade Components[edit]

Rune[edit]

Following testing, Rune of Adventure, despite saying it returns 50% endurance appears to only return 50 endurance - 50% of the original 100 endurance bar. It could still be an option but it's less attractive now given its primary stat.

Sigils[edit]

Force is PvE, main bar Blood plz. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 18:56, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I'd forgotten about that. It was from before Ogre runes got removed since it proved better with the stacking modifiers. For a a few days it was once again not a PvE specific sigil. -- Impact.2780(talk) 23:02, 1 November2015 (UTC)
Remove Energy from sPvP build ? Now that it gives only vigor it's kinda trash. Swap it for Leeching is a better option as we discussed it with Sind, after a +1, swap to Shortbow for Bloodlust stack+proc Leeching while you're still in combat, ends up with +900 true damage from sigil for the next +1. Otherwise, build is still the same, nothing else changed (26/01 patch) Griffith (talk) 13:10, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Sounds fair, made the changes. Bw start using the comment section on the build page instead :P --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 13:53, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Overview[edit]

Needs to be shorter and the format should match other overviews. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 08:24, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Vote comment discussion[edit]

OurMysteriousLeader's reasoning for giving it the lowest rating possible:

"This build is terrible. It does not compete in the current meta dps wise as there are skills more powerful and easier to land than backstab. There is no real reason to have pistol offhand unless you plan on interrupting your opponent. However, for the sake of conservation using CnD takes less resources than hitting Black Powder and Bound.

The sustain is even worse. Channeled Vigor provides more personal control, evades and HPS than Withdraw. Even more HPS if you have full Endurance. Hell, you don't even need Shadow Refuge. CV is good enough to replace both. Use the slot for something with a bit more utility like Impairing Daggers or Bandit's Defense to have a quick stun break.

At least the OP got something right, SoA on DD > Infiltrator's Signet. More evades yay! But the elite is outdated. Impact strike does even more CC and you can kill someone if you down them with the uppercut. The traits chosen have very little survivability. Bountiful Theft? Like wtf does a DD need vigor for? Lol. CV, SoA and Hard To Catch offer a total of 275 endurance which is plenty enough endurance to keep even d/p set. On that note, Brawler's Tenacity would give not only reduce the more useful utilities' CDs but provide a little more endurance. I would complain about the rest of the traits but I am running out of space. TL;DR this build is bad."

Feel free to complain about the rest of the traits here, meanwhile I've got some questions for you :D First, do you seriously believe that D/D is better than D/P unless you want interrupts? Second, can you not see why Bountiful Theft is worth taking especially with Sleight of hand? Trickery offers other viable options, yes, however saying that it's bad is just.. bad. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 09:19, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes I do. The stealthing option for D/D hits harder and is much less costly than D/P and the weaponset isn't limited to power builds. Bountiful Theft also could be replaced with trickster for extra condition removal. Shadow Refuge could be replaced with Roll for Initiative for better condition removal via trickster and stun break. I understand the idea behind the current selection, but vigor is useless to daredevil with all the endurance gain options available. I am going to stop there with the criticisms, however, because my suggestions would change the build entirely. So instead of chewing it up, might I suggest hybridizing defenses (stealth and evasion)? It would put needed defense in this build. -- OurMysteriousLeader (talk) 05:02, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
D/P > D/D in every possible way. DD skill 3 is useless, #4 is a filler, and #5 can be blinded/dodged/interrupted, not to mention it requires melee range which makes it completely useless for disengaging. D/P #3 is a spammable gapcloser/blind with good damage, #4 is a spammalbe CC, #5 is the only smoke field in the game that can be found on a weapon set - really good for stomping, self/AoE stealthing so it has invaluable utility. Shadow Refuge in this meta can indeed be difficult to pull off, but Roll for Initiative is probably not the way to go. The best thing about Bountiful Theft is that it prioritizes Stability and defensive boons, interrupting safe stomps with 1 instant cast skill is epic. What defensive changes would you suggest? --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 08:38, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Lol. D/P would have been really good if Anet didn't nerf Black Powder's effectiveness by half. The only reason why it has gotten any consideration is because the stealth gained from leaping through BP is mostly unstoppable. I will admit however that you do have some valid points, except for Deathblossom being a bad skill. There has been growing talks about the effectiveness of acro(DA)/trick/DD DB spam condition builds in game and on the gw2 forums. While it does require some extra resource management, I can tell you from personal experience that the build puts out much more than people give it credit for. Think taking on anything sept except a necro on point and be very hard to kill due to all the evasion. I've put down plenty of druids, DHs and 1-2 reapers with it. 3 10s AoE bleeds really isn't anything to scoff at especially when you have 30 of them on you. With full carrion and krait runes, bleed ticks easily reach 2-3k and tend to last very long. On top of it's permacripple, it also synergizes better with Escapist's Absolution due to it's high evasion uptime. As for this d/p build, unless you plan on evading like hell there is really no point to using Daredevil or Escapist's Absolution. In which case, replacing Withdraw with Channeled Vigor would help you with extra evades and allow you to take better advantage of Escapist's Absolution while increasing your sustain. This will make up for the lack of condition removal. Otherwise, switch BT with trickster because you won't be getting much out Withdraw in comparison. Secondly, Bountiful Theft can be nice for Stability and defensive boonrip but the frequency of it is at minimum every 24s and dependent on players having defensive boons. With trickster, every time you withdraw you remove 3 movement conditions +1 every 15 seconds. I also recommend that instead of using Bounding Dodger, which is hard to land anyway, that you use Unhindered Combatant since it provides -10 incoming damage and condition damage and provides decent swiftness which gets increased through runes of the pack. Another suggestion for defense is switch havok mastery for Weakening Strikes. This will make a high weakness uptime on your opponents combined with Lotus Poison. --OurMysteriousLeader (talk) 07:37, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Bounding Dodger is probably the main reason to take the elite spec for D/P - 0 initiative cost leap finisher for Black Powder + damage. Channeled Vigor would probably make more sense with Unhindered Combat but BD is a key trait. Trickster is probably a good option too, but it's not better. Skill #3 does suck for Power builds. The boonstrip doesn't have to be defensive, against necs you can easily steal 25 might stacks and stability with it for instance. For condi removal there's Escapist's Absolution - not the best thing ever but it's not bad. Weakening Strikes works too, but the damage modifier is more important for most people. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 07:54, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
As long as you understand you have options. Just consider trying them out as a change of pace. --OurMysteriousLeader (talk) 08:47, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Knowing options and then arguing D/P is "bad" compared to D/D are two different things. I'm much more concerned how you find D/D to be a better weapon set than D/P. The arguments thus far are lacking. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 13:54, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
I just explained across multiple posts why D/D > D/P. If you need a refresher then let me recap: 1.) D/D can be as effective across more stat options than d/p (ex. berserker/dire/Carrion) because D/D is capable of high damage, high condition damage, evasion and stealthing. It is a hybrid weaponset. 2.) D/D can do the same things d/p does with less redundancy and cost, except for interrupts (gapclosing, blinds using traits, etc.). Again, 6 initiative to stealth (D/D) vs 9 initiative or 6 initiative and 1 dodge to stealth (D/P). 3.) D/D works better with Daredevil than D/P since the elite spec allows for high evasion uptime through endurance gain while it rewards the player for evading. Deathblossom on the D/D weaponset takes advantage of what Daredevil offers simply because it provides 3-4 more evades available. These extra evades allow you to burn initiative while your endurance builds up and the modified evades allow you use your evades as a weapon while you gain back some initiative. Daredevil is for evasion builds and D/P has no evades so it will not benefit from evasion traits. You really are better off replacing Daredevil with SA. If all of this is too much, D/D is statistically superior to D/P. It has a higher chance of surviving on point. It has a better time fulfilling more roles than backcapping and being a pet. It is more versatile and allows a greater freedom in buildcrafting. Secondly, I never said d/p was "bad", I said this build was. It is entirely lacking in defense and offers nothing the old d/p build hasn't. So far the only thing this build really benefits from having Daredevil equipped is 50 extra endurance. It can spam 6 evades in a row while my suggestions can put it well over 10 evades and then some with more sustain and DPS. Feel free to keep your D/P weaponset and utilities if you think the old meta is better, but you are wasting a spec by having Daredevil on. --OurMysteriousLeader (talk) 10:16, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Well I haven't seen this much bullshit, misconceptions, and lack of logic since I stopped reading the official forums. If by 2015 you can't comprehend why D/D sucks in tPvP then idk what to say. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 11:04, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
I laid down the facts and explained why for both the build and the weaponset. I am not sorry none of them agree with your opinions. But it isn't like your opinions matter anyway because I can tell you straight up from your replies and lack of explanation you've never done any testing in your GW2 career. This build sucks. Not sorry. --OurMysteriousLeader (talk) 06:01, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Color me conspiracy theorist, but it appears my vote was deleted to keep negatives minimal and the rating high. So I made another one and took the liberty to save this discussion to a word doc just in case someone wants it removed for the same reasons. In the future if someone explains why you are wrong, self-reflect instead of self-destruct. Removing important, legitimate and relevant information is dishonest. --OurMysteriousLeader (talk) 06:24, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Your vote was deleted because here we rate builds based on their maximum potential, while your comment was all about a l2p issue and it's going to be deleted again. You complain about mainly 3 things (4 with the D/D one): condi cleansing, sustain, irrelevance of Daredevil for DP. 1) Condi cleansing: 2 out of 3 utility skills cleanse conditions, hell even dodging removes conditions (in most cases). Btw mesmer didn't have a single condi cleansing for 3 years, were they also bad? Yes they had better ranged options, but they also had way more limited access to stealth/blinds/teleports. 2) Sustain/Daredevil: Daredevil gives a solid damage modifier, way to cleanse conditions, more dodges (with dmg on dodge and another resource for stealth comboing). You say dodges are meaningless for D/P because it utilizes stealth, and it's better for D/D because something something skill #3 - I'm sorry, what? Are you implying that the extra endurance is locked and can only be used by D/D skill #3 as a resource? That part just makes absolutely no sense. Will you get more dodges out of Daredevil with D/D, or..? If not then it's just as good for D/D as it is for D/P (actually, way better because of the extra combo). " It has a higher chance of surviving on point" - what are you doing on point with a thief? I think I found why you can't play this build: you either have no idea about the build's role, or you know the role but desperately try to force it into a non-thief role. In that case, reroll. Look, not every build is for everyone, if a build or an entire class doesn't have what you seek, then reroll, but even then you should acknowledge why it's great at what it does. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 08:09, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
If we are talking about maximum potential, the potential for this build is pretty low compared to what you could be using. Hence why "good" and "great" didn't cut it for me. Even the counters state "most 1v1s". That translates to 'contributions mostly restricted to capping uncontested points'. That sucks. Meanwhile, D/D condition Daredevils are killing nearly every elite spec and most 1v2/3s with Death Blossom (DB) spam in both WvW and PvP. And why? Death Blossom and Caltrops/Uncatchable spam procs Signet of Malice alot, the key to their sustain. It gets even better the more evades that are made available with daredevil. This is where you start becoming wrong about me, though. What I know comes from first and secondhand experience. I've already thoroughly tested weaponset compatability with Daredevil. I already know how to use D/P. And I can tell you D/P is better off with SA. Daredevil is designed with evasion builds in mind. D/P is better off a stealth weaponset and so Shadow Arts is what should be used. It would also be a good idea to drop this "Thief's role is backcap and +1" mentality. It is not a good excuse to justify the flaws of this build since almost any profession is capable of both and more. It exists because constant crying from terrible players and ignorance from anet has shoved the profession into this "role". It remains because it is easier to regurgitate than innovate. On a few ending notes, just lol. There is no "right way" to play any profession, Hanz. You play the profession well, or you don't. And if you want to rate "maximum potential" in a serious and official environment you gotta include flaws. Otherwise it starts looking more like a car dealership that sells lemons. Nobody likes lemons. --OurMysteriousLeader (talk) 12:39, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
There is always an optimal way to do things :P And like it or not, thief's role is to backcap and +1. Btw anyone who dies to Signet of Malice caltrops thief deserves to uninstall. That build is trash tier even by 2012 hotjoin standards. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 13:06, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
On a side note I'm using this build, running Smokescreen (poor Dragonhunters and others who stand in there), running the Daredevil Runes and even using Zerker Amulett (to whip me in shape to get timings right) and at least I'm able to kill in a 1v1 in about 50% of the time. I mostly die if a second one comes I didn't see coming, which is my own fault and would probably killed me on every build --Rai (talk) 13:15, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Impact Strike Combo[edit]

I'd like to add the following combo I got from Sindrener:

  • Impact Strike Impact Strike
    ½Activation.png
    40Recharge.png
    Impact Strike
    Physical. Strike your enemy and stun them.
    Damage.pngDamage: 199
    Daze.pngDaze: 2 seconds
    Range.pngRange: 300
    +
    Uppercut Uppercut
    Uppercut
    Physical. Deal a heavy blow with your fist, sending enemies flying.
    Damage.pngDamage: 598
    Launch.pngLaunch: 0
    Range.pngRange: 130
    + Stow weapons. This readies
    Finishing Blow Finishing Blow
    Activation.png
    Finishing Blow
    Physical. Deal a downward strike on your foe. Downed enemies struck with this ability are finished.
    Damage.pngDamage: 532
    Range.pngRange: 300
    or
    Finishing Blow Finishing Blow
    Activation.png
    Finishing Blow
    Physical. Deal a downward strike on your foe. Downed enemies struck with this ability are finished.
    Damage.pngDamage: 532
    Range.pngRange: 300
    +
    Steal Steal
    30Recharge.png
    Steal
    Shadowstep to your foe and steal from them.
    Range.pngRange: 1,200
    for use on a third target for downing.

However the Finishing Blow mouseover doesn't seem to be working. Anyone know how to fix it? If not, is the combo worth adding in irregardless? The idea is that getting off all three hits of Impact Strike on a downed opponent might be impractical in an actual teamfight, but maybe you could get the first two off hits off on someone who's bunkering, then stow/switch targets/shadowstep to a different target for the downed strike.

--Midi (talk) 21:33, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Sure, sounds creative. ^^ Finishing Blow wasn't added in the "old" template system and the new isn't live yet, if it's not too important I'd rather wait it out. --Revenant tango icon 200px.pngHanz (talk) 09:05, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

basi>impact[edit]

You need to switch basilisk with impact strike. Almost every single player in top tier is using basilisk. It's just way too strong vs all the blocks.