Elementalist - Staff Backline

My thoughts about this build[edit]

I have a lot of problems with this build... I don't think it's very good and people playing ele in WvW shouldn't take this build for example.

First of all, let's start with the traits - they're good. These traits have been in the meta for 2 years now, they're still really good for a beginner or a support ele, although a more experienced player seeking more dps will likely trait differently.

Next, the gear - it was meta before the major nerf to celestial in the April 15 patch. Celestial was actually powerful because of the insane amount of crit damage you could get, not for the better stats weighting. With the apparition of Ferocity, celestial has been brought into line on crit damage and the little up to stat weight doesn't counter the major nerf to dps. It's still okay to have a bit of celestial (for example armor only, or weapon only) to get a little bit more of everything, but full celestial means you will not be good in anything: as you can see here [1], 1740 power, 2429 armor, 18k hp, 27% crit chance and 183% crit damage, those are overall really bad stats. You're okay on the defense side, although 2400 armor is not for beginner, but you're clearly behind by a lot in offensive stats, just to get a little bit more condi damage (not useful at all in WvW Zerging where people routinely play with Melandru runes, -40% food, and have a lot of condi removal) and healing (ele has surprisingly bad healing ratio on the water fields: they are good for combo, not for the initial healing provided). So overall, bad gear choice.

Now, the skill choices - and this is where I draw the line. An elementalist build without any cantrip ? What ? But you took Cantrip Mastery in Traits ? Basically, any okay zerg will wipe you without any defensive cooldown (III - Earth Embrace is not a reliable defense). Elementalist is the class with the lowest hp AND armor in the game, that means you will rely on positioning to stay alive. But sometimes it's not enough, and Lightning Flash, Mist Form and/or Armor of Earth will save your ass more times than I can count. Signet of Fire is really not that good in WvW, since a good gear choice will get you more offensive stats and you will free a slot for a more important utility than just a stat-boost passive.

And the elite... People still don't know about Tornado combo ? Tornado give you 3x power, 2x precision, 2x vitality. If you start your Meteor Shower then goes into Tornado when the cast finish, the remaining meteors will use 3x more power and 2x more precision. It's a deadly combo and the bread'n'butter for dps. It's also very safe thanks to the stability and added vitality (bonus: bumping enemies off the cliffs will win fights). The FGS on the other hand will not give you as much offensive capabilities while decreasing your overall defense (Skill 3 and 4 are very dangerous in a zerg since it's melee range...)

Overall I think you didn't put much thought into this build, for example using Cantrip Mastery while not using any cantrip (which is a death-wish vs. not brain-dead enemies), or using Signet of Fire to boost dps while having a bad gear choice which gimp dps and defense. So I don't think it should be listed as Great or even Good. Leybi (talk)

Thanks for the input. The trait and skill thing must have been an oversight I think. I've uploaded many builds recently and maybe I've forgot to correct a part of this one. But this is why it's a community project - feel free to change any gear, trait, or skill. --Hanz (talk) 12:47, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Overhaul this build[edit]

This really needs an overhaul. What the other guy said there is a lot of little things that add up to make this build much worse than it should be. Staff Eles are Meta and this build reflects poorly on it. And contrary to popular belief Celestial Gear was actually bad before the nerf. You actually had a Higher Effective Power and thus on average more damage as a full PVT Ele than a full Celestial Ele. Plus much higher Defensive stats, the condition damage was beyond useless, and the healing power was barely useful. Blast finishers use the blasters Healing Power not the person who put down the water field. So the full Celestial staff builds before the nerf were still really bad. Post nerf they actually might be better since the crit damage didn't make up for your Effective Power loss at all and the now the secondary stats that should have been your focus are better. But enough ranting we need to change a good portion of this page.

And is it possible to reset the votes after we finish the overhaul. --DantesS_P (talk) 23:09, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Next iteration[edit]

Sounds like this build has subject to some work already, and that has got it to a point where is it OK, but I think it is still not “the meta”.

Rune[edit]

With Ether renew you can remove 8 conditions every 15 seconds, clearing another one every time you enter water and another one every time you dodge in water. So conditions aren’t an ele’s enemy. Therefore Melandru runes are unneeded. Runes should be Strength (or optional Hoelbrak for the poor or overly cautious).

Sigils[edit]

You swap attunements constantly, so ‘on weapon swap’ sigil is incredibly effective. Sigil of Battle offers a lot of synergy with the runes of strength and the elemental attunements (might every time you hit Fire). This combo will allow you to keep around 13 stacks of might up by just doing your normal rotations (11 with Hoelbrak).

Energy is normally the second sigil, as this gives you more dodges, which in turn gives you more evasive arcana procs. This is a more defensive set up and recommended when you know you are taking direct pressure.

A more offensive second choice is Sigil of Strength. This again synergises with Strength runes allow you to keep you might well over 20 (often capped). Targettio (talk) 15:50, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

People choose melandru because there is not a great amount of stability at all times. The stun duration reduction is very helpful in staying alive. Ether renewal is not always a choice because it can be easily interrupted. Many people therefore run Signet of Renewal. However, the choices you've offered aren't bad, they are just playstyle-based. When we have to pick a "mainbar" we'll have to poll many people to see what they're using. The majority usually is mainbarred but other than that it's not bad to include variety and options to the reader. On swap sigils are effective, however again evading is not that helpful as there are internal cooldowns. I would say probably sigil of battle over restoration (which is straight up a bad sigil to rely on) and probably keep the bloodlust or change it to momentum for extra toughness. For foods we shoud include the food that reduces damage taken while stunned. There are defs mistakes on the build like "Take armor of earth or frost bow over lightning flash" and armor of earth is already on the bar >_< « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 14:21, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Melandru runes are wrong to me too, Strenght should be first choice, about the sigils Battle is a must have for the might but also Bloodlust is a sigil that every class must have in WvW because of how easy you can get to 25 stacks. I would rather take Energy over Battle but not Bloodlust. I wouldn't be afraid of the stun duration because as an Elementalsit you have many kiting skills and many stun breakers. If you don't paly it wrong and go in the melee train you won't need more than your skills. --Warrior Icon Color.png Billaboong (billa-talk) 15:51, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
If you are over 7 stacks of might (which you always will be with Battle and Strength runes) then you have more power than a full sigil of blood lust. Battle doesn't rely on you pre-stacking and isn't lost when you are downed. So battle gives more damage and is more reliable than bloodlust. This is why I think is should be in the build. Look at any of the TA builds (before they disbanded recently) and all the eles ran Battle with Strength runes. There was some variety in their armour choice, but basis was always the same.
IMO, an Ele should not be building for when they get stunned. That is like building downed state traits. You should be using your positioning and your 2-3 (4 if you include tornado post patch) panic buttons (cantrips) to stay away from the train. If you get caught with out any cooldowns left, you will be dead/downed regardless of the reduced stun duration. Targettio (talk) 07:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Re-done[edit]

I spent about an hour talking to different elementalist's and researching popular staff elementalist builds online to re-haul the version you see today. I know it is not perfect, however I think it incorporates all the feelings above into a concise material that is friendly for beginner's and advanced players. I even included the cleric variant which is surprisingly popular in highly organized groups but not so much in pugs. Please discuss and re-vote « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 16:38, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

You did a good job but yet some skills aren't good enough to be in the build:
Arcane Wave Arcane Wave
30Recharge.png
Arcane Wave
Arcane. Blast foes in the target area with an energy wave for critical damage.
Damage.pngDamage: 341
Book.pngNumber of Targets: 5
Radius.pngRadius: 360
Combo.pngCombo Finisher: Blast
Range.pngRange: 900
is a blast finisher over other excellent skills for damage (Ice Bow) or Break Stun (Lightning Flash), it's not worht it. Also
Glyph of Elemental Harmony Glyph of Elemental Harmony
Activation.png
25Recharge.png
Glyph of Elemental Harmony
Glyph. Heal yourself and gain a boon based on your attunement.
Heal.pngHealing: 4,894
Might.png3Might (20s): 90 Power, 90 Condition Damage
Regeneration.pngRegen (10s): 1,300 Heal
Swiftness.pngSwiftness (10s): 33% Movement Speed
Protection.pngProtection (3s): -33% Incoming Damage
is only good while running alone for the Swiftness but nobody uses it in combat. --Warrior Icon Color.png Billaboong (billa-talk) 17:37, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
They are listed as variants. Enough people that I talked to mentioned them that I thought it was a good idea to include them. The blast finisher provides more healing. The glyph is mostly for swiftness, correct. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 18:10, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Mango Pie[edit]

Mango Pie is bad for any kind of zerg build, let's compare it to Omnomberry Compote:

  • MP heals for 85 every second
  • OC heals for 970 every kill

This mean that you need a kill per second ratio higher than 11.5 seconds in order to gain more healt with MP. This will never happen in zerg fights where you kill an average of 2-3 enemies every 10 seconds. Also the price difference is so small that it can't be a reason to go for Mango Pie. --Warrior Icon Color.png Billaboong (billa-talk) 17:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The OCX crew that I talked to has battles that last up to 10 minutes and deaths aren't very often occuring so for them esp it doesn't make sense to use OC. Any time you get healed for someone dying, chances are you were doing something that worked prior to them dying (As you had 0 healing then). It's one of those "Better if you're already better" things. Not helpful for equal exchange encounters. If anything Omnomberry Compote shouldn't be included. (Mango Pies are there as a cheap alternative.) And I rarely kill 2-3 enemies every 10 seconds. It's more like 5 people die after 20 seconds in a group. There is an internal cooldown on OC as well, so it doesn't even work out that well. T1 has stopped using these as well as the Sigil of Restoration a long time ago. Literally 0 people mentioned them out of the 8-10 I talked to out of 4 guilds on blackgate. Could be different on TC/JQ! Let me know if you have any sources there. But I would recommend putting Mango Pies back in as a cheap alternative for newbies. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 18:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Mmh, it's a good point, if you have to go for an alternative then Mango Pie is good yes. OC shouldn't be there. I would still add a DPS food for players that have no problems with staying alive. --Warrior Icon Color.png Billaboong (billa-talk) 18:27, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Good idea for sure. Cheap one is Dragon's Breath Bun; Expensive is probably Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup, Plate of Roasted Cactus, Plate of Truffle Steak, or Bowl of Curry Butternut Squash Soup. Bowl of Roasted Lotus Root is a good defensive one for lessening stun duration, but I think better than that would be Loaf of Saffron Bread which lowers condition duration and incoming damage while stunned. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 18:37, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Cheap one is right. I wouldn't go for Might on critical (5 seconds Might with 1 second CD) and neither Precision as main stat because you do not want to get over 30% (50 % with Fury). Also Bowl of Roasted Lotus Root is noth worth it, reducing only stun it's a waste of Food, you would die anyway if you get caught on emeny melee train. Loaf of Saffron Bread is a good alternative, it's almost a permanent Protection while disabled. All other DPS foods you mentioend seem good to me. --Warrior Icon Color.png Billaboong (billa-talk) 20:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Please indent one extra when replying ;) the might is closer to 9 seconds, but I've removed it along with the precision food. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 20:28, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree that Mango Pie isn't a good choice but generally on-kill items (sigils, foods etc) are very dangerous to rely on. When a PUG zerg walks over another PUG zerg then yes it will proc like crazy. But in a Guild fight, you will potentially 50-70% of the fight without anyone getting finished. As people are less likely to go down and they get bannered. Once all the cooldowns are blown, then you start getting kills, but at that point you don't need the health.
Don't forget your signature ;) We've talked about this many times and we're not aiming to create guilds builds, that would be useless and too hard, the build we want to have in this wiki are for the average player (pug and experienced pugs) and tought in a zerg versus zerg context. I agree that "on kill" sigils are not reliable as "on swithc" but for a pug is good enough. We could defenetily add this explaination on the variants. --Warrior Icon Color.png Billaboong (billa-talk) 10:46, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
I disagree, we definitely want guild builds in here. Or at least listed as variants. If anything they are playing at a higher level and can bring better choices to pug groups. But yeah, I think we've covered this in the guide properly now. xP « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 13:42, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
I think we're not meaning the same thing with guild builds. Guilds create builds all togheter, one is depending from another. Let's make an example: guild XYZ has warriors using shout build, one every five warriors will have Empower allies, some will have X runes depending on how much stability is given by XYZ's guardian build wich doesn't have DPS because they run DPS mesmers instead of tanky melee mesmers. We must and of course we do give alternatives but it's far away by saying these are guild builds because you would have to give the whole set of them togheter. --Warrior Icon Color.png Billaboong (billa-talk) 15:09, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Patch changes[edit]

Tornado doesn't increase your power level anymore so the Meteor Shower's combo is dead. It now instead deals more damage with its skills.

The new Glyph of Elementals is really interesting, since you can command your elemental it's much more reliable than it used to be. Check the water one, seems better than new Tornado to me, is it new meta? --Warrior Icon Color.png Billaboong (billa-talk) 17:47, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Would the elemental not just get zerged over in larger fights? I still feel as though Tornado is the best elite skill for an elementalist in an organized fight. When following the pug tag sometimes I run FGS though, so I can get away if needed. -- Billjustice 18:08, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Blasting Static Feld for swiftness[edit]

This has gone out of the meta because of how good guardian symbols can stack swiftness. It actually is a waste to get an Important skill con cooldown while guardian symbols recharge fast. Will remove it from usage if nobidy gives a valid point. --Warrior Icon Color.png Billaboong (billa-talk) 06:52, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Frost Aura for Staff?[edit]

Pretty basic build, but the question I have is why does this build continue to mention frost aura? Frost Aura is an offhand dagger ability really the only way would be to blast Frozen Ground and that gives you 2secs of frost aura, not worth it. You also mention traiting for gaining swiftness and protection on auras. Once again something for a D/D build. So basically what I'm asking are you trying to build a Staff or D/D build, because the build focuses on both weapon sets.

I was working under the assumption it was 3 seconds on blast finish. I've seen groups blast them before, it didn't seem that bad. And I think you can get swiftness/protection on auras you blast as well as the staff earth 3. But if it's something that's too confusing or not worth mentioning we can always remove those tidbits « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 11:50, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
You don’t blast for Frost Armour, you leap. So when the train leaps into the enemy (Guardian GS#3, Warrior Sw#2) they get Frost Armour. It last 5 seconds with a leap, it mitigates some of the enemies initial burst and can stack a lot of chill on the enemy. As one enemy can be hitting 3-5 of you at a time, he will get the chill stack for 3-5 times, per second. It requires a high level of coordination to pull of effectively, but quite strong when done correctly. Targettio (talk) 14:06, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Trait changes[edit]

If you're going to change II out of air, you'll probably want to update the trait variants section that mentions it. Or perhaps add it as a variant if you think it's worth noting. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 12:48, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

The formatting of the trait variants section is cluttered and unorganized to me so I'm figuring out a way to make it more concise. I will update those changes soon! -- Haru (talk) 17:27, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
After the trait changes, imo there is no reason to show two trait spreads any longer if they are this close; should write the traditional as a variant. Did you make sure to include the old cahnges in the variants section or should we go back and check on that? « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 21:15, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Glyph of Elementals vs Tornado?[edit]

I've never tried running Glyph of Elementals in a zerg fight, but my worry is that the elemental will get trained over before it does any good. I think this is more viable in a small fight rather than a large fight. In large fight I feel Tornado is more useful for its survivability (especially with blind spamming) and for its ability to knock around dead bodies, so that they can't be revived. It is also great for knocking people of walls and cliffs. FGS is great for escapability if you are roaming or following and unorganized pug blob.

Has anyone had success with with the Elemental in a group of 20+? I'm kind of curious to hear how it works. For me the upside of Tornado is far greater than a single knockdown and a couple of condi clears which can be handled fine with healing rain and shout heal front line.

Fixed « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 13:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
I see Haru changed the elite to FGS and made a note that it is the "best" elite out there. While it is great for escapability I wouldn't refer to it as the "best". I escape fine with just my positioning and cantrips. I think the damage and utilities of Tornado are better for group combat. I also feel the noted variant of Druid Spirit would have the same issues as the Glyph of Elementals in that your summoned creature would get zerged over. I have no problem with leaving FGS as the default elite, but I would not list Summon Druid Spirit as an alternative and I would definitely add Tornado as a variant, because for me it is a toss up between Torando and FGS for the meta elite. --Billjustice (talk) 19:06, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
FGS can be used for surprise engages (FGS 3+4, Lighting Flash + Static against an unprepared/retreating zerg), and is what I've seen most eles use. I've seen a few use tornado, but nowhere near as much as FGS. Never seen the druid though, seems like it would be too unreliable (the root targeting random backliners instead of the main hammer train, etc) and too easy to be killed by stray AoE. Keep in mind that I've only been in T1, and have no idea what players on other servers are doing.--DefineLies | Talk 04:32, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Yeah I'm really not seeing this Druid thing over
Conjure Fiery Greatsword Conjure Fiery Greatsword
1Activation.png
180Recharge.png
Conjure Fiery Greatsword
Conjure. Manifest a fiery greatsword in your hands and at the target location. When it lands, it damages and burns foes. Wielders of this weapon gain increased power and condition damage.
Damage.pngDamage: 246
Conjure Fiery Greatsword.pngConjure Fire Attributes: 260 Power, 180 Condition Damage
Book.pngNumber of Charges: 15
Burn.pngBurning (3s): 984 Damage
Book.pngNumber of Targets: 3
Duration.pngDuration: 60 seconds
Radius.pngRadius: 150
Range.pngRange: 1,200
or
Tornado Tornado
1Activation.png
150Recharge.png
Tornado
Cantrip. Gain stability and shape-shift into a tornado that damages and launches foes.
Damage.pngDamage: 271
Stability.pngStability (3s): Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, feared, or taunted.
Launch.pngLaunch: 600
Book.pngNumber of Targets: 5
Radius.pngBoon Application Interval: 3 seconds
Duration.pngDuration: 15 seconds
Radius.pngRadius: 240
Unblockable.pngUnblockable
Combo.pngCombo Field: Lightning
Combo.pngCombo Finisher: Whirl
. Any summoned creature isn't really viable going against a zerg. Just a few previous edits ago
Glyph of Elementals Glyph of Elementals
Activation.png
90Recharge.png
Glyph of Elementals
Glyph. Summon an elemental based on your attunement.
Fire Attunement.pngGlyph of Elementals (fire).pngFire Elemental: Deals damage.
Water Attunement.pngGlyph of Elementals (water).pngIce Elemental: Deals damage and heals.
Air Attunement.pngGlyph of Elementals (air).pngAir Elemental: Deals damage and stuns.
Earth Attunement.pngGlyph of Elementals (earth).pngEarth Elemental: Deals damage and is hard to kill.
Duration.pngDuration: 60 seconds
was removed for the exact same reasons I feel Summon Druid Spirit Summon Druid Spirit isn't viable. --Billjustice (talk) 06:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
About the FGS for "surprise engages". I think Lightning Flash is good enough for that. If you put too much space between your group and the enemy group before dropping your static field the enemy group can just wait it out and walk away. You want your allied group to be leaping pretty much right after your static drops. --Billjustice (talk) 19:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Lightning Rod Variant[edit]

That seems like a horrible trade-off to me (at least for organized zergs where stability is plentiful). Could you please go over the rationale Haru? I am assuming it is strong with lightning circle and perhaps tornado in large fight skirmishes. Also the cooldown for lightning circle is nice, but won't it hurt to lose that extra condi cleanse? Awaiting your thoughts! « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 13:45, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The build is used in the T2 NA GvG scene. It requires higher skill and has higher damage output. The focus is not on the melee train; rather, you focus CC skills on enemy casters and gank. It also works on the melee train mid-fight, when stability rotations are scattered and stability uptime is lower than the start of an engagement. The reasoning behind getting rid of the grandmaster condi clear is the fact that your melee train rarely sits in your big water long enough to get multiple condition clears. Most of your condition clearing in the melee train comes from Warrior warhorns and Guardian purging flames. While the general militia member may not find it useful, I believe it is important to note its relevance in the T2 NA GvG scene, where it has seen enough consistent use to be considered a "meta" variant.--Haru ✯✯✯ 14:04, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
The grandmaster condi clear only clears condis from yourself not from your group. The healing rain clears conditions regardless of your traits. I think the build is fine, but I'm curious if this is a "meta" build. Wouldn't a meta build be something the majority of the people are running and not just a couple of guilds in T2? --Billjustice 18:34, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Everything that people use in WvW right now was theorycrafted and put into practice by GvG guilds in T2. That's my justification for adding the Lightning Rod as a variant. If it ceases to be used, it loses its meta status. --Haru ✯✯✯ 20:32, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
My point is T2 is just three servers out of dozens. Who made a couple of guilds on a couple of servers the "meta" as opposed to what the majority of people are running on the majority of servers? Shouldn't the meta be what the majority of people would use and not a couple of GvG specific guilds on a T2 server? --Billjustice (talk) 22:28, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Fire Variant[edit]

Been goofing around with this for unorganized pugs. I know it's not great/meta, but interested to hear what you think about it and how it might be improved on it's own xP « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 14:02, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Melee train ele? That 5 second icd on Burning Ashes is brutal. --Haru ✯✯✯ 14:06, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
I think we should add this and possibly the lightning rod variant as well as their own separate build pages and put them under "builds in testing" and start the discussions there. --Billjustice (talk) 19:04, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Sigils[edit]

I question with

Soothing Disruption Soothing Disruption
Soothing Disruption
Cantrips grant you regeneration and vigor.
Regeneration.pngRegen (6s): 780 Heal
Vigor.pngVigor (6s): 100% Endurance Regeneration

granting vigor after using a cantrip if

Superior Sigil of Energy Superior Sigil of Energy
9Recharge.png
Superior Sigil of Energy.pngSuperior Sigil of Energy
Gain 50% of your endurance when you swap to this weapon while in combat. (Cooldown: 9s)

is needed or the best possible sigil to use by default. I believe

Superior Sigil of Bloodlust Superior Sigil of Bloodlust
Superior Sigil of Bloodlust.pngSuperior Sigil of Bloodlust
Gain a charge of +10 power each time you kill a foe, five if you kill an enemy player.

with its 250 extra power at full stacks is much more important. If anyone disagrees with

Superior Sigil of Bloodlust Superior Sigil of Bloodlust
Superior Sigil of Bloodlust.pngSuperior Sigil of Bloodlust
Gain a charge of +10 power each time you kill a foe, five if you kill an enemy player.

being on the staff by default I feel it should at least be listed as a variant to

Superior Sigil of Energy Superior Sigil of Energy
9Recharge.png
Superior Sigil of Energy.pngSuperior Sigil of Energy
Gain 50% of your endurance when you swap to this weapon while in combat. (Cooldown: 9s)

and/or

Superior Sigil of Battle Superior Sigil of Battle
9Recharge.png
Superior Sigil of Battle.pngSuperior Sigil of Battle
Gain 2 stacks of might (20 seconds) when you swap to this weapon while in combat. (Cooldown: 9s)

. I believe Battle, Fire, Energy, and Bloodlust are all good options. --Billjustice (talk) 19:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I need to do math on might uptime through Battle sigil, but if you have 9 stacks of Might, you have 30x9=270 extra Power, which outweighs Bloodlust's 250. If a staff elementalist can maintain 9 stacks of Might or more through Battle sigil or Strength sigil, Bloodlust is then the inferior option. --Haru ✯✯✯ 20:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
What are your thoughts on Bloodlust and Battle together? I'm not sure the energy provides enough of a value with the vigor you will get from using cantrips and the extra evade you get with staff fire 4. --Billjustice (talk) 22:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Would Battle + Strength provide more power? --Haru ✯✯✯ 10:37, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
A few people I spoke with said they tested it out against the golem army in the PvP lobby and said they never got enough might stacks from Strength to make it worth it over Bloodlust or Battle. I have not personally tested it myself though. I went back and watch several raid videos of mine where I was using Strength runes and a Sigil of Battle (pre-patch) and with the exception of just after empowers on regroups I hovered between 7-13 stacks of mights for most of the fights. I don't think the Strength sigil is going to consistently keep you at 9+ stacks of might to outweigh bloodlust. Doing some rough calculations in my head. Say you do damage once a second in a fight and you have a 50% crit chance and the sigil has a 60% chance to proc that gives you a 30% chance to gain might for 10 seconds + 30% from boon duration in Arcana and the +45% from Strength runes (or is it just 20%?). That would mean you probably would never exceed 150 power from the extra might stacks, because after around 6 stacks the previous stack will be wearing off. Granted in this best case scenario you will be getting 150 condi damage as well, but a staff elementalist's condi damage has minimal impact on the fight compared to adding and extra 100 power to their direct damage. I think for me the question is more Battle vs Strength moreso than either of them over Bloodlust --Billjustice (talk) 14:44, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I tested with air variant and full time fury (63% crit chance) and str runes hovering around 9-11 stacks of might (min 8 and max 12) with sigil of strength while camping in fire. This is probably the overall best result we could hope for with sigil of strength imo. Averages around 300 power increase. Will test non air variant soon! « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 16:09, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Very similar results with full fury and non air variant (48% crit chance), 9-11 with min 7 and max 12 while camping in fire. Again both of these are "best case scenarios". What actually happens should be further tested/researched « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 16:24, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I thought with the nerf to sigil of battle the average you could get (even with str runes and 30% boon duration traits) was 7 3/4 stacks of might which would equal 233 power (my maths being: 20seconds * 1.75 percent boon increase = 35 seconds of 2 stacks of might on swap. Can only occur every 9 seconds so 35/9 = 3.888 applications of 2 stacks of might = 7.777 max * 30 for 233 power, this of course assuming you swap exactly on the 9 second cooldown as well, it's very likely you'll only get 5-7 stacks total from sigil of battle in an extended fight now). I could be wrong, so you should do the maths on your own. But if this were correct and it did require a "ramp-up" time of around 30 seconds to start hitting max stacks (again being less than bloodlust anyways), then I would definitely say bloodlust is a good contender, at least for organized wvw zergs going around not dying very often and having shorter fights. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 15:58, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah Chase, that is why for mean Bloodlust is a must and the other sigil is what is debatable. Myself personally running Soothing Disruption I feel the vigor is enough to help restore your endurance and I therefore do not run Energy, because my theory is if you aren't enough pressure to use a cantrip you probably aren't doing that much evading anyway unless you are incorrectly dodge rolling out of habit. With the nerf to Battle I'm kind of intrigued by the idea of using Fire or Air sigils instead of Battle or Strength. A theorycrafter I trust very much still feels Battle is worth it even with just 2 stacks of might.
With Strength runes, there is no reason to not use a Might-generating sigil. Not only do you get 75% higher uptime on Might, you also get a 5% damage modifier that can stack multiplicatively. Perhaps, Battle+Bloodlust would be good. I can see a skilled Ele not needing to rely on Energy sigil. I wonder what Might you can maintain with Battle+Strength. --Haru ✯✯✯ 00:21, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I posted above what sigil of strength does with full uptime on fury (basically the most perfect conditions one could expect in gvg). Someone shoudl check how it actually fares in a gvg match as you don't hit as many opponents outside fire and have a lower crit chance. Personally I've always been a fan of fire + bloodlust. Reason being I use this for pure glass staff setup as well and I'm too cheap to get diff staves for an alt xD « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 01:36, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I tested the differences between Battle and Strength today and my conclusion is that with the post-patch change to Battle it really doesn't matter most of the time if you are full zerk. If you are not close to full zerk then battle is definitely better, but with full zerk they both were about equal with maybe an edge to Strength IF you can consisting being get non-stops hits in. I haven't tested Fire vs Battle/Strength though. Personally I think since the meta build listed has Soldiers armor I would list Battle over Strength though. --Billjustice (talk) 05:39, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
First of all, great discussion so far. I'm really enjoying it. Here's the solution I came up with. Let me know what you think. If Strength Runes, Battle/Energy without Soothing, Battle/Bloodlust with Soothing. Any other rune, Bloodlust/Energy without Soothing, Battle/Bloodlust with Soothing. How does that sound?--Haru ✯✯✯ 06:55, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Because of the Battle nerf (2) and Might (30), it seems Bloodlust is the better option in certain scenarios. I can add a note that stacking sigils are not considered appropriate for GvG situations. --Haru ✯✯✯ 06:57, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan. I also have no problem with noting Fire and/or Air as variants as well. I haven't play tested the damage difference between those and extra might stacks, but some people swear by them. Myself personally I prefer the extra might stacks. --Billjustice (talk) 16:49, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Move some skill variants to usage?[edit]

Ether Renewal Ether Renewal
Activation.png
18Recharge.png
Ether Renewal
Cantrip. Heal yourself and cure a condition with every pulse.
Heal.pngHealing: 625
Book.pngConditions Removed: 1
Book.pngPulses: 8

and

Conjure Fiery Greatsword Conjure Fiery Greatsword
1Activation.png
180Recharge.png
Conjure Fiery Greatsword
Conjure. Manifest a fiery greatsword in your hands and at the target location. When it lands, it damages and burns foes. Wielders of this weapon gain increased power and condition damage.
Damage.pngDamage: 246
Conjure Fiery Greatsword.pngConjure Fire Attributes: 260 Power, 180 Condition Damage
Book.pngNumber of Charges: 15
Burn.pngBurning (3s): 984 Damage
Book.pngNumber of Targets: 3
Duration.pngDuration: 60 seconds
Radius.pngRadius: 150
Range.pngRange: 1,200

are describing skills that ARE in the recommended build. I feel if you wish to describe these skills they should be moved to the usage section. I think only true variants should be here and should use the format of SKILL => SKILL followed by any necessary explanation. (see Armor of Earth -> Conjure Frost Bow and FGS -> Tornado for examples). It is hard for me to recommend any variants to

Ether Renewal Ether Renewal
Activation.png
18Recharge.png
Ether Renewal
Cantrip. Heal yourself and cure a condition with every pulse.
Heal.pngHealing: 625
Book.pngConditions Removed: 1
Book.pngPulses: 8

, because of its low cool down and massive condition clear. If someone feels there is a good variant to Ether Renewal I'm willing to give my thoughts on the other heals, but I think Ether Renewal is pretty standard and accepted.

Also, I don't feel Summon Druid Spirit Summon Druid Spirit (or any summoned creature) is viable for large group combat. Summoned creatures behave too unpredictably and are too easily killed. I also think it is odd to have a race specific skill listed in a meta build. I personally think it should be removed completely, but if it is kept I think we should at a minimum note it is a variant and remove the words "best option" and simply label it as another option.

Cleansing Wave vs Cleansing Water[edit]

Lightning rod variant -- Water trait taken removes a condition off yourself and allies when attuning to water. We already have a trait that grants regeneration when attuning to water from the arcana line, so wouldn't "granting regeneration to cleanse a condition off yourself and allies" be a better fit? « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 13:16, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Plus it would make Healing Rain that much more effective. I will be changing this if there's no argument/counter-point. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 13:18, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

That trait is broken. It does not cleanse every time you grant regeneration as it says. Healing Raing, for example, does not clean as much as it should. --Warrior Icon Color.png Billaboong (billa-talk) 13:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Ahh okay then. Bummer -- it clearly would've been better then « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 14:07, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
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