Reaper - Offensive Blood Support

Page Creation[edit]

I created this page after noticing that the blood variant had been taken out of the Greatsword/X build, which I feel was a necessary change. Although the weapon sets and the armor/runes/sigils aren't the different between the two builds, I would argue that the focus of the builds are different. Even disregarding that, after DeKeyz put out her new berserker reaper guide, it was clear that the rotation of a blood variant build would be highly different from a reaper shroud build that, as far as I can tell right now, mostly just spams its autoattack until the target is below 50%. Given the different playstyles and the recent exclusion of the blood variant from the Greatsword/X page, I felt it necessary to create the blood variant as its own page. If it turns out that the build is redundant and/or the rotation of Soul Reaping Greatsword/X is somehow the same as the blood variant, then this page will no longer be needed. Until then, I feel that its separate existence is justified. MoonKK (talk) 23:07, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

you are aware that you can just edit it back into the other guide? Which is a thing i have planned but haven't had time yet. Fredor (talk) 09:15, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but like I stated, I believe the rotations are just too different between the builds. Vampiric Presence in the absence of Dhuumfire makes Death's Charge and Soul Spiral DPS gains and part of the standard rotation, and then going in and out of shroud to use dagger auto, nightfall, and locust swarm is what's optimal. However, with Dhuumfire, it seems likely that you just stay in shroud using 1 the whole time. I'm not sure what the optimal rotation for both builds are, and how they change based on whether you take dagger/warhorn or not, but if it turns out that they are similar enough, I guess we can merge the two pages again. As it is right now, with the assumption that Greatsword/X is camping reaper shroud 1 and blood support is going in and out of shroud repeatedly, my opinion is the playstyles are different enough to warrant a second page. Just like we have three ele builds that take the same traitlines and equips, and essentially the same traits. Though I will admit in this case, the reaper builds are more similar in the sense that under 50% HP, rotation is identical, and the weapon sets are basically the same. MoonKK (talk) 14:35, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
1% dmg difference isn't a reason to maintain two buildpages Fredor (talk) 20:19, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
I never said anything about build damage differences being a reason to have this build as a separate page. My argument has always been the differences in rotation and role of the builds. This build is meant for the first or only necromancer in the group, as it maximizes group DPS by bringing unique offensive and also offers supportive buffs. If you are the second necromancer in a group or a necromancer in a solo situation, more likely you would prefer the Soul Reaping version, which is the Greatsword/X page. This reasoning is consistent when you look at the other pages for other classes as well. For instance, warrior currently has two builds on two different pages, Berserker - Phalanx Strength is meant for the first warrior in a party, and then Warrior - GS Axe/Mace is meant for the solo or second warrior. Before warrior fully replaced ele as the main party might stacker, this was also the reasoning for the separation between Elementalist - Staff and Elementalist - S/x LH a long time ago, and to an extent is still a reason for separation now. The scepter variant would stack might for the group as the first ele, and then further eles would take staff to maximize personal damage. And so the fact that one build would have an emphasis on group support and another on maximizing personal DPS is enough of a difference in these cases to warrant different pages. In addition, the rotations were also different. Same case here; the blood reaper rotation is different from soul reaping one (feel free to prove me wrong on this though, as I say this as more of a hunch rather than a proven fact) because one relies mostly on shroud auto attacks, while the other pops in and out of shroud and is constantly swapping weapons as well, above 50% HP of course. Also, the damage difference is about 10%, as stated in the second post. MoonKK (talk) 03:57, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
As I see it: One Playstyle, One Rotation -> one build with one traitline variant Fredor (talk) 09:28, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
But that's wrong. They don't have the same playstyle because they don't have the same rotation. DeKeyz stated that the Soul Reaping variant does 10% more damage in the link I provided above, which she stated was about 1.5k DPS. Where could this 1.5k DPS have come from? If the rotations were the same, then the blood variant would have Vampiric Presence and Vampiric Rituals as its unique offensive booster, while the Soul Reaping variant would have Strength of Undeath that the blood variant wouldn't have. The fact that the meta Dagger/X build opted to take blood over soul reaping for so long leads me to believe that Vampiric Presence and Vampiric rituals is a larger gain to DPS than the single Strength of Undeath modifier. Thus, Dhuumfire has to be the trait that accounts for the 1.5k discrepancy between the two builds. Right now, the rotation on the Greatsword/X page marginally uses the reaper auto in its rotation, whereas to maintain 1.5k extra DPS through burns, it at least requires constant shroud camping. Therefore, there is no way that the Soul Reaping variant could use the same rotation as the blood variant. In reality, I would suspect that given the amount of fast attacks and multiple pulses of Soul Spiral, Death's Charge, Locust Swarm, Nightfall, the wells, and reaper shroud and dagger autoattack, Vampiric Presence would be much more effective than Strength of Undeath. A soul reaping build that does less damage in this regard and does not take advantage of Dhuumfire in the majority of its rotation would likely do less damage than the blood variant and undoubtedly would not put out that extra 1.5k extra DPS.
In summary, it is easy to see that that extra 1.5k DPS the soul reaping build has over the build variant is from maintaining burn stacks because in the end, Vampiric Presence and Vampiric Rituals are likely a wash when compared to Strength of Undeath (though I would still put it in favor of the blood traits). At 25 might and 25 vuln, with a banner boost of 170 condition damage (since DeKeyz does all her calcs in optimal conditions), 4.5 stacks of maintained burning is an extra 1542 DPS, but this can only be maintained through camping Reaper Shroud. There is no way that the optimal Soul Reaping rotation is the same as the Blood rotation. MoonKK (talk) 13:50, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
Those are some valid points about the rotation, but I agree with Fredor that none of it justifies an entirely separate build. Greatsword/X already provides enough detail on both Blood Magic and Soul Reaping as options. The only real variation between the two articles is one Adept trait. The weapons, skills, gear, and consumables are otherwise functionally identical, and the rotation in Greatsword/X doesn't even lean on RS or Dhuumfire. It would be more useful to just merge the two articles and keep all the minor variants on Zerker GS Spite/?/Reaper in one place. There's no reason we can't have two rotations in one article anyway. Zahmahkibo (talk) 03:16, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
It probably just comes down to website philosophy. I just believe that people coming to Metabattle are looking for help, and so we have to be able to help everyone, even those with no knowledge. When you mix two playstyles and builds on the same page, it becomes harder for them to differentiate between which build is which. Doubly hard if there are just a ton of "Trait variants" and "utility variants" every where. You definitely want variants listed because nothing is "one size fits all", but the whole point of a guide is to make the decision about a build for the user, and so listing a ton of traits and/or trait lines as "variants" and including every utility as a "variant" just defeats the purpose and doesn't really help someone with no knowledge who is seeking guidance make his or her decisions any easier. So keeping "variants" limited and highly similar is the most ideal to me.
But if the majority of people believe in consolidating information so that there is a minimum number of links, that's valid too. I just think that we're no where near the point where we have too many build pages in PvE cluttering up the site. In fact, most professions only have 1 HoT build page for dungeons. MoonKK (talk) 14:06, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Page Move[edit]

I moved this page to the raid category since Reaper - Greatsword/X got changed back the the blood variant and so this was just sitting redundant in the dungeon category. I changed it up a bit for raids, with the notable changes being the removal of dagger as the recommended secondary set as a ranged set opens up a lot of playstyle options, flexibility, and survivability that was simply not needed in dungeons. It may happen that some raid encounters necessitate or would greatly benefit from having a ranged option as well. Also of note is switching off the Scholar runes for Strength runes, because Anet would've messed up big time if people are still able to reliably maintain their scholar buffs in raids. MoonKK (talk) 21:57, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Build Role[edit]

As of right now, I'm thinking the niche role this build provides that others cannot is purely its ability to fast rez allies that go down, and to prevent them from bleeding out. Other than that, boon removal is also a respectable feature. As to the cons, necromancer has always been and remains to be one of the lowest damaging "selfish" classes (which I see as engineer, elementalist, thief, and necromancer) but is arguable more useful than a thief at least, as far as I can tell of raids as I'm posting this comment. It also cannot fulfill any condition damage roles, although life steal does seem to ignore armor. If the only merits of the reaper are its rezzing and boon removal, I'd suspect this build to get a "good" tag if it passes testing. MoonKK (talk) 21:57, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Leeching Bolts[edit]

Does anyone know how the damage of these work? The wiki has a formula where it appears it has a base damage of 198 and then scales by .03 for each point of power? It does also appear that these bolts ignore armor. Right now, I want to get a clearer answer about how many Soul Spiral throws out, and how reliably all of them can hit. I put down 12 for now because the tooltip says that Soul Spiral hits 12 times. MoonKK (talk) 21:57, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Title[edit]

Why is this called support? There's 1 well trait and a pretty standard vamp aura, that hardly warrants a support tag. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 12:54, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Because a full personal DPS maximizing reaper would take the Soul Reaping line instead of Blood Magic. The only reason you take Blood Magic and sacrifice a bit of your personal DPS is for the offensive and defensive support that Blood Magic offers your group. Additionally, at least based on what we have seen about the Vale Guardian so far, the only reason any squad would bring a reaper is for that reviving potential and Blood support. Otherwise, Reaper in a DPS role is overshadowed by Herald and Engineer, while it's boon stripping is made redundant by Chronomancer with a sword. MoonKK (talk) 14:08, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
So after looking on the GW2 necro forums a bit, I noticed Spoj posted that the difference between Blood and Soul reaping was 1% in soul reaping's favor while according to DeKeyz, the difference is 10%. Although normally I would trust DnT on math matters and optimal rotation things like this, DnT really has no one that knows how to play necro well whereas Spoj has been since release. So I guess you're right now that this doesn't really qualify as support, as Blood should be what a reaper optimally takes for damage anyway. I'm not too sure how to change the title right now, but I'll figure it out. MoonKK (talk) 17:10, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Yea, I don't know how to change. I was just planning to go for something like "Vampire DPS" to make it clear that it was offense, and that you take Vampiric Presence. Plus, it's been pretty common nowadays to refer to blood builds as "vampire", but anything that is simple and descriptive is fine. Just not too generic because I feel that saying the weapons as the title doesn't tell you too much about what's inside at a first glance. MoonKK (talk) 17:48, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Vale Guardian[edit]

So at max, I think a group could be able to afford taking one Reaper. I say "afford" because at least for this fight, there's nothing Reaper can do that other classes can't do better except for rezzing people. Boon corruption is on long cooldowns and bringing additional boon corruption or holding off placing Well of Corruption sacrifices DPS in a fight where DPS is the differentiator between coordinated groups that fail, and those that don't. Herald w/ Mallyx and Chronomancer just blow necro boon stripping out of the water, especially with Herald who has no cooldown and no delay as long as they manage energy smartly. Mallyx is also not often a DPS loss anyway, and is a DPS gain if a Chronomancer can give nice quickness uptime. As such, I'm taking off axe in the mainbar, it is simply useless as a range weapon because (A) the boon strip is not needed anymore, (B) necromancer range damage is bad and your damage relies on you being on melee range, and so it follows that (C) the reaper would preferably not be in the group for green circles because too much damage would be lost. I think suggesting axe as a alternate set might be okay in case you need range, but your group is gonna be in trouble with DPS if you got an axe necro trying to DPS. So this is basically looking like the Dungeon build now, I guess I'll try to add profession specific tips for the raids in order to help keep the purpose of this page. MoonKK (talk) 14:01, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Gorseval The Multifarious[edit]

I haven't had the chance to try reaper on Gorseval yet, but it looks like Reaper might actually have an okay role in this fight when party members have to lock down the spirits from reaching Gorseval. A multitude of cripple and chill can really lock them down, and dagger even has an immobilize. MoonKK (talk) 14:01, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Slight adjustments[edit]

This is basically the same build used by one of the NA guilds who completed the whole (?) wing, so nice theorycrafting. There are 2 differences though, Valkyrie gear and Scholar runes. build --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 09:36, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Which is also basically the same build as the dungeon build from dekeyz. Scholar runes are a strange choice since you cannot upkeep the bonus from it. No toughness is also a strange choice since you cannot keep the aggro this way. Fredor (talk) 10:36, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Yea, on the surface, it's very similar to DeKeyz's build, but I find it hard to recommend her guide because a lot of the subtleties of the class and reasonings behind the build aren't there. For instance, Reaper's Onslaught is an inferior choice to Deathly Chill, especially with capped might. I don't know why she would mainbair "Suffer", and Flesh Golem is the clear winner I think in terms of elite skills. It's just in the end, not very informative and you just trust that "they did the math", except I have a feeling even the math is wrong. MoonKK (talk) 13:40, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Yeah scholar is weird but it's not supposed to take aggro. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 10:38, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
The role the necro can fullfill best is the tank since they do not loose damage by substituting precision with toughness. Going full valkyrie only gives you a very tanky dps dealer that doesn't know how to hold aggro. Fredor (talk) 14:11, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
I specified above why I chose strength runes instead of scholar, but after actually doing the raid, it is incredibly easy to keep above 90% health, at least for the first two fights so far. The valkyrie gear is definitely situational on whether you are the tank or not, but under enough conditions, it's valkyrie damage output should be just a tad under berserkers assuming that the uptime on precision buffs (spotter, fury, banners) are up at all times. But yea I agree, perhaps Scholar runes can be recommended, as well as the valkyrie gear. Both are the exact same playstyle, it just depends on what your party needs from you, and for the scholar runes, depends on if you're good enough to maintain them. My first reaction is that most people wouldn't be able to maintain the bonus well enough, but I could easily be wrong about that. What are your guy's thought's on rune selection? As for the armor, I believe unless you are the designated tank, full Berserker's is absolutely what you have to take because you do not want to draw aggro away with valkyrie, and because depending on group composition, you might not be able to max out crit chance without precision food, which would do less damage. MoonKK (talk) 13:40, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Also, with Valkyrie gear and being the group tank, the usage section would change a huge amount in regards to your role and priorities. This page is getting a bit long, and I feel a second page that is advertised as like "Reaper - Raid Tank" or something would be better simply for organization's sake. MoonKK (talk) 13:56, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
My bad, I forgot Valkyrie has vitality and not toughness. MoonKK (talk) 18:30, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Rotation[edit]

So the rotation is actually pretty complex because a lot of things are DPS gains over the autoattacks, and none of their cooldowns really line up nicely. Couple that with the fact that you want to line up your dark fields and whirl finishers as best you can, and it's sort of a mess. I think, similar with engineer, as long as you know what skills to prioritize, you can really just improvise the rotation cause it's gonna be nothing nice like guardian/ele/thief/warrior/etc., especially if you want to incorporate weapon swaps. Honestly, I think camping GS is even okay, but I'm reluctant to recommend anything that is technically suboptimal on the page. Rotation choice was basically all based on Spoj's advice from this thread: here, in which I asked him stuff and completely made the thread off topic. The two possibly controversial things to include are Soul Spiral and Grasping Darkness. In terms of Soul Spiral as a DPS increase, DeKeyz says it is, Flutter from NA says it is, Spoj didn't include it in his rotation at first, but then said it is as well, so that should be sealed. I haven't seen anyone else suggesting Grasping Darkness except for Spoj, but it does make sense that with Deathly Chill and 1.0 coefficient/sec it could be a DPS increase. It would be a low priority cast though of course, right above your GS autoattack and weapon swap to dagger. MoonKK (talk) 14:18, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Main Tank variant[edit]

There's an effective raid tank variant of this build roaming around. Traits, except for decimate defences, and utilities are virtually the same except for gearing. Worth creating a separate build page? Amorality (talk) 22:01, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

If the playstyle and usage different, I think it is. Especially because the guides on individual encounters will change a lot. And things like perfect rotations won't be so focused on anymore. MoonKK (talk) 04:16, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Merge?[edit]

So now that we can tag 1 build for 2 sections, do we need both this and GS/x? They look really similar. --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 09:55, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Of course they look similar. MoonKK Spliced this on of the gs/x build when it still had a soul reaping variant because he thought that the blood magic variant needed it's own page. But we do not really need a merge. Either we move this one into the guide section and keep the other, or we redirect one to the other Fredor (talk) 10:10, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes, this is a fantastic idea. This page does look a little long and would be suitable for more of a guide than maybe a build page. I do rather like the concision of the Greatsword/X page, although I would propose a change to a couple traits as well as the recommendation of RS autoattack in the rotation. MoonKK (talk) 23:10, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
We can delete one of the two build pages then since they are basically variants of each other Fredor (talk) 23:29, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
I think the Greatsword/X page is probably more established so we should keep that one. Is there anyway to simply move this page and rename it to a guide or something, like this page Guardian - Bunker? MoonKK (talk) 00:22, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Admins can rename, we can only redirect afaik Fredor (talk) 00:47, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Utilities[edit]

I'm removing Corrupt Boon and Nothing can save you from utility suggestions. Substituting in any of the damaging wells or signet of power is way too great a loss of DPS for two utilities that are wholly unneeded. Blue Guardian gains his invulnerability boon once every 10 seconds. Unholy Feast on axe alone has a 12 second recharge, so even with no other boon removal, it should suffice for all strips needed. Couple that with the ability to take focus for boon removal every 16 seconds, and with Well of Corruption being able to remove boons every 32 seconds, there is no need for any more boon removal. Those skills alone will offer continuous boon removal on demand every 10 seconds if timed right. The DPS loss in having to camp axe for the boon removal is also negligible in comparison to dropping wells for the rest of the Vale Guardian fight, where the fight is a lot more high pressure and arguably damage matters more. If Nothing can save you and corrupt boon can act as bandages to help the learning player or sub-optimal party, then the best advice is for the player to improve in skill rather than take crutches that only hurt them in the bigger picture (less damage for rest of fight). MoonKK (talk) 23:54, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I prefer being as long as possible on gs since you are a dead weight with axe. Thus loosing a utility place for on of these skills should be acceptable. Fredor (talk) 00:29, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
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