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Thief - Power DPS

Edits[edit]

Since this is getting a ton of attention I am going to skip its revisions for now. (adding the food and making the code look pretty.) I am going to let you guys decide what works best when that happens I will revisit the page. I just dont want to edit over edits. --Josepepowner (talk) 18:27, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Just saw the changes you made I like that new style of weapon layout its good for this case in point. I might use it for guardian swap for scepter. Just need to learn how it works. --Josepepowner (talk) 19:03, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Previous Discussion[edit]

I feel like Signet of Malice should be mainbar as that's the most commonly used heal skill, and even Withdraw is use more commonly (for specific bosses) than Hide in Shadows--TahiriVeila (talk) 00:25, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree and changed it sorry for that I am just trying to get all the meta builds out on this site ASAP. Its the ones people will look for. So I simply made the heal skill swap. --Josepepowner (talk) 00:54, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
No worries ^___^ looks good--TV Thief Icon.jpgTahiriVeila(talk) 03:10, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to do a overhaul of this build. The meta for Thief in dungeons is S/P D/D with you using the appropriate set depending on what you are facing. Shortbow is primary used for might/stealth stacking, pulls with choking gas, and teleport skips with infiltrator's Arrow so it shouldn't be on the main bar. --DantesS_P (talk) 17:04, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Good point sorry for not knowing that. I dont play thief often so I dont know the new metas. On top of that I was just trying to push out the build ASAP so things might be off. Thanks for revising it. Please do so on any builds that might need it. --Josepepowner (talk) 17:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
That being said, it's extremely rare to use both sets in the same encounter. It was correct with shortbow as you will stack might and stealth for most encounters between fights. Sword and Pistol usually swaps with D/D. It also keeps bags cleaner and better organized. In addition newer players will always have the safety of Infiltrator's arrow. This is why we usually keep shortbow on the main skill. Shadow Refuge is also usually Smoke Screen. The rotations aren't fully explained as we have done on Dulfy's Guide. Shortbow also allows stealthing in the middle of a fight with smoke screen, healing with water, etc. Again it's the oh shit swap weap. I can't think of when both sets have to be used in the same combat sequence so I will switch it back to shortbow. Chase (talk) 18:15, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I see your point. In a more realistic setting you I usually swap from out my melee weapon sets S/P D/D and leave my Shortbow equipped. And in this meta I rarely actually use D/D since on majority of bosses you usually just FGS it. We should probably add all 3 weapons on the weapon set section and explain in the usage you should alternate between the S/P and D/D while keeping shortbow equipped. --DantesS_P (talk) 18:53, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Read the new edits tab just let me know when the build can be modified and updated with foods and such. Alternatively you can add the foods too. the template and code I am using.

=Food/Potions=
* Always carry the 10% Dungeon specific nourishment buffs.
:* Exclusions
::* AC use {{Gw2food|Superior Sharpening Stone}}
:::* A cheaper alternative {{Gw2food|Hardened Sharpening Stone}}
::* TA use {{Gw2food|Powerful Potion of Slaying Scarlet's Armies}}
* {{Gw2food|Bowl of Curry Butternut Squash Soup}}
:* A cheaper alternative {{Gw2food|Plate of Steak and Asparagus}}
::* The absolute best but costs a ton. {{Gw2food|Bowl of Seaweed Salad}}

just replace the foods with the foods you normally use. Easiest way to see this is go to one of the other 6 builds not mesmer yet.... and you will see how I have it set up. Cheers and thanks for the help. --Josepepowner (talk) 18:36, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Toxic Sharpening Stones are also a better choice than regular sharpening Stones for Thief (in AC) as it gives the same amount of Power as Superior if you have Practiced Tolerance and it gives +10% Vulnerability duration. It's also a cheaper option. Zuphix (talk) 10:13, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Shadow Refuge main bar over Smoke Screen[edit]

My speed clear groups we rarely take Smoke Screen over Shadow Refuge. Anytime you can use Smoke Screen it's much faster to just use Black Powder instead. You only need about 2 seconds for everyone to blast and hit the stealth cap. While the Smoke Screen just sits there for quite a bit longer. And there are only a few places in dungeons where you are going to use the Smoke Screen as a projectile wall that the Guardian won't just extra protect with Wall -> Shield of Avenger -> Wall. While Shadow Refuge gives you several extra stealth spots where you can stealth directly on the trash. Especially with the weird leashing the AI has where before they aggro they will keep following you in stealth until you pause. Several trash spots in CM are a good example of this, the final trash run in the tunnels of P1/P3 is probably the best example of this. The mobs will follow you until you pause so a shadow refuge lets you keep stealth without accidentally hitting them with a Dragon's Tooth or other blast. So putting Shadow Refuge on the main bar makes much more sense than Smoke Screen. --Human icon.png Dantes (talk) 20:28, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

That might be fine for organized groups. If you're pugging, you might not have a guardian. It's easier to stealth a party with more initiative using this and shadow refuge if you can't rely on them to even blast it for you. Plus you get a little bit of a dps boost with the heartseeker+backstab combo (can be used twice in one activation). Honestly, I mainbar Shadow Refuge and Signet of Agility when running these days. My third utility is what I end up switching for the occasion. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 20:37, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Practiced Tolerance/ Variants[edit]

I dont think practiced tolerance should be considered to be the meta build as it is not included wehn you talk about maximum damage. Critical Haste(X) would be the way to go. If your party lacks fury it should be changed to Furious Retaliation(I).

I dont know if i'm allowed to change it, so what do you think?

--Xukk (talk) 18:50, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Main bar'd your suggestion. If you want to add any variants feel free to do so :) --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 15:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Ok did it :) --Xukk (talk) 15:12, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

New D/D Rotation and traits.[edit]

I made a forum post on the gw2 forums here explaining it. https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/thief/Meta-d-d-rotation-updated/first#post4925645

Basically you can get more DPS out of D/D by running infusion of shadow and replacing every 3rd (80 second or shorter fgihts) or 4th (lasts up to 5 minutes) lotus strikes with a heartseeker. I've done the math 3 times now and it all checks out, above 50% its almost the same DPS, but between 25-50% you get a 3.7% increase in DPS. I wanted to make a note about it because I'm pretty sure if I did the edit, it would be immediately changed back cause it LOOKS like a troll.

Standard rotation last 78 seconds

Cloak and Dagger -> Backstab -> Double Strike -> Wild Strike -> Heartseeker -> Cloak and Dagger -> Backstab -> Dagger Chain -> Cloak and Dagger -> Backstab -> Dagger Chain


Burst Rotation lasts 30 seconds

Cloak and Dagger -> Backstab -> Double Strike -> Wild Strike -> Heartseeker -> Cloak and Dagger -> Backstab -> Dagger Chain


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tm01GAGLC-2afa6PDrOBqWjL0xRjEhKyagyZNzLKXus/edit?usp=sharing here's the spreadsheet I used if you want to double check my work.

Added a bit more detail for the "below 25%" section of the rotation (http://puu.sh/gSykD/becb5593e8.png)

Also I've updated the current meta rotation to include wild strike. http://puu.sh/gSxGD/bbcf64c36c.png As you can see here it does slightly more dps and gives you 90 seconds of First STrikes, instead of 40. I've check the methods and numbers the guys over at dulfy are using, and a flaw in the method they used to determine cast-time and after-cast has given them quite a few strange numbers, one of which is showing wild strike having an absurdly low dps compared to double strike.

Hey scoots, we were not able to meet up on TS3, so I guess I will go back and re-test all the values again this week/upcoming weekend if time permits. All I can ask is that you remain patient just long enough for me to confirm this work :) « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 01:44, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
We're gonna test this very soon. What I can say at the moment is that this build isn't worth it for short fight (when you spike with Ice Bow #4 and finish the boss off with heartseeker). It might be worth it for longer fights though. We'll keep you updated and this rotation should probably be added to the guide. Also for some bosses you want to get the last chain of your auto attack to keep poison on them (i.e. The Butcher in HotW p1, the 2 Quaggan champions in HotW p2, last Alpha in CoE) -- Jerem | talk 08:38, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm actually off work the next 2 days, so I'm almost certain we can meet up on TS in the next 2 days. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scootts (talk • contribs) .

After testing, I have determined DS and WS are about the same. There is a difference in the longer run for sure. If you're heartseekering for less than 10-12 seconds, then padding with DS or with DS+WS are about 0.8% - 6% different (assuming full initiative between 25 and 50% foe life). This should be enough evidence to realize how drastically DPS can shift in short fights. Just depending on if you get the last WS in or not can make a 5% difference in DPS when comparing rotations.

Seconds HS DS WS SCPS
3.9 5 0 0 1.923
~11 8 8 0 1.498
~11 6 6 5 1.510
11.5 6 6 6 1.587
28.5 15 15 15 1.532

How much practice is required to learn how long the fight is? I really don't know. Probably best to advise using WS after a DS if you're using a DS at all. In above 50%, the two rotations didn't compare. However you can feasibly do AA+CnD+BS (with no padding) for 36 seconds straight (assuming good fury uptime in the party). That is also the rotation that has the best vulnerability application so your party can do it's best DPS (assuming vuln is not capped). That rotation is 3% better than what we have listed. The reason we choose to pad is to keep our initiative for the better DPS portion of the fight (less than 50 or 25% foe health). So that should be taken into account as well.

In the end though, ICE BOW! So really this is just a lot of theory crafting for fun. Applying this will be a better measure of it's importance. So let's wait to hear back from SC when they do their tests this week. If a thief really had to use their rotation for over a minute then I would suggest they run the solo build 56030 with feline grace. At that point a better pug is the best DPS rotation, but c'est la vie. It's a game should be for fun. From a competitive perspective we would use Ice Bow rotations, from a pug perspective we should probably take a "take it easy and have fun" perspective « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 16:26, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Also I would like to really see the application of IoS on smoke screen, I think there are some real possibilities there. For example this rotation might be improved via IoS:

Smoke Screen > HS > BS > DS + WS > HS > DS > HS > BS > ???, this should be nice with the ini return and also revealed training boost to hs. Would like to see times possible with this rotation because it might be killer in < 10s rotations. « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 16:32, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the current Icebow Meta[edit]

D/P is a better fit for the current Ice Bow Deep Freeze chain meta so the Thief can be the main Defiant manager. So what usually happens for most bosses let say scale 50 Arch Diviner (doesn't actually mater what). Open Deep Freeze by Ele and then uses Ice Storm. The Thief then with off hand Pistol uses Basilisk Venom + 4 Headshots (could be less if party member has a quick CC). Boss is now back at 0 Defiant stacks and can be re-Deep Freeze instantly after the previous one ran out. This keeps the Tempest Defense bonus of Eles up as long as possible and keeps the boss from ever using a skill sometimes. D/P because D/X is higher single target damage than S/X especially since after all 4 ice bows the enemy typically at less than 25% health an you can start using Heartseeker. --Human icon.png Dantes (talk) 17:02, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Yep, SC is aware and plans to add this to the main guide as well. I think there were a few other places D/P made sense too, but I have forgotten now :( « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 17:38, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Alright then, it's been the Meta for quite a while and I don't want to make big changes since you seem to have a solid plan for this page. --Human icon.png Dantes (talk) 18:30, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
While I don't see a problem adding a new page for D/P icebow meta. They could always nerf the icebow, so replacing this one with the D/P build would be wasteful. -Scootts p.s. I'm so good at using this website xD
I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of adding "equip pistol" if you need to be the second deep freeze in the usage section « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 23:37, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
D/P is the meta because even without icebow, smokescreen comboed with the rotation: "DS -> WS -> HS -> BS (using infusion of shadows trait)" is the highest DPS for short fights --Scootts (talk) 07:34, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
The guardian also has multiple trait and weapon variants in on build page. Shouldn't be so hard to add one other weapon variety. We could even throw out s/p for that altough I am against that since it has one or two use cases. Fredor (talk) 08:31, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Wrong weapons[edit]

With the change it now recommends you slot your Sword and Pistol with night sigils. Not sure why... « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 12:03, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Runes alternative[edit]

Has anyone considered the use of Runes of Rage as a decent alternative to scholar ? I think it may work fine, especially with the new No Quarter trait. Perma fury on thief would mean perma +5% damage (plus increased fecrocity). --Grunzek (talk) 13:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Thief already gets perma fury from the collective buffs of others in the group. --Scootts (talk) 01:58, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
True. However, I may have not expressed myself correctly. I wanted to point out that runes of rage grant you +5% damage while under fury. This is not new, but added to the New Quarter trait, I think that these runes can be a nice alternative to scholar (basically, 10% damage while above 90% HP vs perma 5% damage and extra ferocity). --Grunzek (talk) 08:36, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Your losing a significant amount of power though which drops your dps ALOT. The best rune combination are 6 Scholar > 5 Scholar + 1 Beryl Orb (If your not getting the 10% damage, not ruby since your already crit capped) > 6 Ogre (The rock dog actually pushes the dps boost for ogre runes over the 5+1 set, but the rock dog is inconsistent at best) --Scootts (talk) 18:48, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Updating consumables[edit]

I've updated the consumables per the DnT consumable guide, I've also added more information to it to show which paths use which potions since it's not always clear. If you like the format we can move it to the other meta guides as well. --Scootts (talk) 20:15, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Petition to change sigils[edit]

They don't currently follow the DnT meta guide. Also I find it funny that it is still showing D/D instead of D/P. Scootts

  • Added sigil of the mad scientist. No need to add anything else.
  • Nikes guide still lists d/d in it's dps guide so d/d it is. Fredor (talk) 08:05, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
Swapping to Pistol offhand if necessary is literally two mouseclicks, and with the insane amount of damage in the game at the moment there's hardly ever a use for it. Abe
The same could be said for having smoke screen on the build's main bar. Eventually every build on this site is just going to mirror whatever the speedkill record holders ran and no one will use this site because of how inefficient they are for everyone else. --Scootts (talk) 07:02, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
Couldn't the same be said for the PvP section? This is supposed to be Metabattle, just because a build doesn't mention smokescreen in it's mainbar doesn't mean it can't be used. Abe
I don't get your point Scootts. Even if we look at speedrun builds as puzzle pieces, they provide great party utility and damage even if some pieces are missing, afaik - it works for casual pugs and is optimal for more hardcore players or the ones who are looking to improve. Besides, as time passes or the site rises in popularity more and more people start using these and builds eventually it can get to a point where even some of the pugs are running almost ideal setups. And as Abe said, nobody's going to kidnap your family for changing around some things, we just don't recommend doing so. At least that's what I understand, but this isn't my area so I might be completely wrong xP --Necromancer Icon Color.pngHanz(talk) 18:59, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm making a comparison between traits like quick pockets, not including icebow in the rotation, and weaponsets like D/P. The justification for quick pockets is: oh well if your doing a speed run and have an elementalist that is giving you an icebow you can get 3 ini out of picking up the icebow and sneak in an extra CnD, (which is pretty flawed considering you could theoretically use icebow 4 then use steal to instantly close the distance and actually save the time spent running up to the boss and ( not to mention that that thieves aren't even used on speedruns that don't require stealth, ALSO I've checked out more then a few of the record videos with thieves in them and NONE of them use this werid quick pockets to sneak in a CnD rotation, most of their rotations are sloppy at best)). But even if you ignore the fact that it's wrong, you have the wrong rotation listed in the guide since it doesnt have icebow in it and you have the wrong weaponset for the kind of group that runs with that kind of build. If your in a group that is so efficient that you would get more benefit out of quick pockets then sleight of hand; your in the kind of group that expects you to bring D/P: so having quick pockets (while technically higher dps is SO situational not even the people who hold the current records use) and D/D in the same build is inconsistent. --Scootts (talk) 01:56, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Thief Trickery Traits[edit]

There are many ways to build around the Trickery line, but as far as highest damage goes in a standard dungeon situation, the current layout with mid|mid|top wins. The 3 initiative on weapon swap has nothing to do with your regular swaps, but more to do with it proccing when you pick up a conjure. This allows you to go straight from casting Ice Storm to doing your next CnD and backstab. Scoots' arguments are very valid, and bountiful theft and sleight of hand has lots of uses too, but as far as general dungeoneering goes the current layout is more effective, not to mention that vigor was nerfed and is kind of trash now. Abe (talk) 21:55, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

And also buggy as hell Fredor (talk) 22:14, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
But we need to specify that sleight of hand should be used if you don't have an ele in your group specifically giving you an icebow AND we need to update the rotation to include icebow and the CnD you sneak in. Having quick pockets in the guide but not including that rotation is desultory. --Scootts (talk) 05:10, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Quick Pockets[edit]

"Use Quick Pockets Quick Pockets over Sleight of Hand Sleight of Hand if your picking up ice-bows." Curious about this, nothing is explained in the usage section either. What's it for? « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 19:19, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Picking up an ice bow procs the 3 initiative gain Abe
Mhh thought it would proc on drop but I am not quite sure. But it also works with banners and also gives more than 3 init if they diddnt fix it. Fredor (talk) 21:03, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
I am guessing perhaps like, Cnd > Ice Bow to gain 3% damage and +200 from stealth? But there are probably way better ideas for rotations « Chase ♥ ♥ ♥ » 23:29, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
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