Difference between revisions of "Firebrand - Quickfire"

m (Tyroxin moved page Guardian - Quickfire to Firebrand - Quickfire without leaving a redirect: Moved according to naming conventions)
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Latest revision as of 22:40, 31 October 2017

Celestial is not a good stat for this build because this build doestn benefit much from power damage (since "Ashes of the Just", our main-source of dmg does not have power damage) and therefore Power/precisions and ferocity would be completely wasted. If u want to go more towards support swap in apothecary-/shaman- and trailblazer-stats (this way u can go higher on healing power AND on condition dmg). The main issue with dropping Honor is the heal-dodge and the 6 seconds more cd on "Stand your ground" but its not that big of a problem and i dont know what Honor has to do with the heal mantra and the mace/shield-combo. Care to explain? "Quickfire" astronomically better than "Permeating Wrath", just test before rating pls.

Mace, Axe and Justice tome all have excellent power ratios, so Gurdian benefits very well from Power, Precision and Ferocity. I agree that using apothecary, shaman and trailblazer's would be much better, I'm not sure why you're using Dire at all. The heal mantra and mace/shield provide no (group) healing at all without , thats why both are worthless without it. The issue isn't just Permeating Wrath vs Quickfire, though not being able to take it is, in fact, a huge dps loss (and a support build really shouldn't be giving up Indomitable Courage). You also lack burning duration (you're missing 20/35% - see above on gear), you don't have ranged symbols for filler, your utilities don't provide damage (Heal mantra + mace/shield is enough to proc Stalwart Speed) Arete (talk) 03:25, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I am sorry and i know that I must sound like an incorrigable guy who is just full of his build and cant take criticism.
However, I honestly think you dont quite understand how this build works. I only use Axe/Torch, due to the melee-nature on half of my pushes and primarily for the CC (its also not a must-have for this build; one might aswell play with hammer or staff). Means this set doesnt get into play nearly as much as my burning from . Going celestial would result in a severe dmg-loss.
My ranged filler is granting Ashes of the Just to allies. My ranged filler is a Necro dropping his symbols and shadows (thereby applying my burning stacks). My fillers are the fillers of my party. Meanwhile i can heal, defend, do guardian-things basically. Sure if i had an additional ranged weapon it would be even better since i also have "Ashes of the Just" but i wont drop a good support option just to apply a bit more burning.
I also think that you underestimate Quickfire enourmously. Its dmg-potential is faaaar greater than permeating Wrath in a Zerg-context (i brought this into play because i saw u rated another firebrandbuild (which i think isnt good for Zerg) pretty high which was based around permeating Wrath).
You got me on , though. I thought this would only heal me. Did it always heal your partymembers or was this patched at some point? Well then this build does heal significantly less than an honorguard. Still mace/shield makes a ton of sence for granting protection aegis and also for healing (auttoattack, symbol). My Aegis doesnt heal, sadly but it applies burning and Quickness due to and /. Same for heal-mantra. To call them useless without honor is exagarated. They fullfill a purpose, just not the one that other builds use them for XD.
One of the reasons i picked a lot of dire in my setup is because i personally prefered dmg over healing in my current setup (also because our guild-setup has every build do some healing and not just purely relies on the guard to handle that; but i havent had any problems in publics, where i was the only healer of the party with this build so far aswell) because as you pointed out this is not a dedicated healer, but it does a decent job at healing. However, i added said pieces as variants so everybody may decide for themeselves how they wanna place the dps/healing-balance. I wouldnt drop below 1,4k condidmg, though because below you might be better off just playing a full-healer with honor etc and ignore .
The burning duration is not an issue at all. The base-value of is pretty high so u end up on 5,5 seconds with the offensive bufffood and on 5 seconds without it. In a ZErg this will most likely get cleaned halfway through its duration and if it doesnt the player with the stacks will likely die either way.
Btw.: Do you happen to know if i can jsut drop Youtube-links on Metabattle or will this result in a ban? I think i might just drop some ingame-footage for this build so ppl can see my insane burnbomb and aknowledge that is insane for zergs.--Genitor (talk) 15:00, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Quickfire has a 10s ICD, you could put on Quickfire, stalwart speed and heal mantra or just quickness mantra on a standard burn build and get all the benefits of this build while providing much higher personal damage.
So about personal damage and Quickfire vs Permeating Wrath - Lets assume you always hit max targets on Quickfire, this means you'll be getting 2 x 5 = 10 burns of duration 6 (with max burn duration for the best possible case) per 10 seconds. So we would need 15 burns from justice procs (4s per burn) per 10s to get equal damage. Each proc of Justice provides 5 burns so 15 / 5 x 3 = 9 hits per 10s. Staff and Scepter symbols hit 5 times each on 5 targets, landing one symbol for its full duration alone, not counting the smite procs of scepter symbol or any of the other filler you can do will provide more damage than Quickfire. I didn't account for the fact that without Permeating Wrath you'll still get regular Justice procs, but I think it should be obvious that even then, getting an extra hit or two for PW to outweigh it should be pretty easy. This is all kind of a moot point anyway though because like I said before, you could just take Quickfire on a burn build and get the best of both worlds.
I don't know if you've ever used arcDPS, but it has a function to track the average duration of your conditions. I think you would be surprised by your average burning duration with and without max burn duration. Tracking this yourself is a much more accurate way to decide how much burn duration you should run. Considering the way Quickfire applies, once per hit, I find it pretty unlikely that any individual target will die to only Quickfire damage in a zerg setting.
As far as standard burn Firebrand, its a very tested build, on NA servers in particular, much like Core Burn Guardian was in HoT. The vast majority of high level NA guilds would agree that it is the highest damage build in open field/zerg settings.
You can use this format for youtube embeds {{YouTube|vbSoc-fWrHg|[Ren] Enigma}} or just link the page itself. Arete (talk) 16:31, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Thx a lot for the help Arete. I really appreciate it! I am also considering now to maybe dropping Radiance in favor of honor to trade a big junk of dmg in favor of a lot more healing. However if i do that i will let it be known here and i will create a new build on "trial".
1 thing i must add though: "Lets assume you always hit max targets on Quickfire, this means you'll be getting 2 x 5 = 10 burns" thats wrong. The fun-thing about quickfire is that its a party buff. So maxtarget for 1 proc of is in fact 10x5 = 50 burns (spread over, at least 5 targets). And thats exactly the reason i think is an OP-trait and is criminally underrated. If 2 x 5 burns = 10 burns was the case i wouldnt bother to use it in Zerg and just simply go for a full-support-setup.
About Arc-dps: According to Brazil dmg-meters are all incorrect (i reccomment u watch the video about it on YT) due to the nature of the combat-log and combat-floaters. Sadly one cannot say how far off they are and also their legal status isnt very clear. Because of that i dont use dmg-meters. I use target golems in HotM to test dmg but especially in WvW-Zerg with conditions its pretty much impossible to tell exactly how much dmg it does because there are so many variables. I also not meant that a target would die from a couple of stacks of my burning alone but if the target is not able to clean his conditions for more than 5 seconds chances are that it has a full condition bar which will pretty surely kill it. However, its really hard to tell. I personally dont think that aiming for 100% burnduration (changing dire to trailblazer to get higher overal dmg but lose tick-dmg due to the lower condition damage) is worth it. I'd rather have a shorter duration and higher ticks with less overal "paper"-dmg because i think it does better for the majority of Zerg-scenarios.--Genitor (talk) 23:46, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
The thing is, while Ashes is a group buff, its "maxtargets" per charge is 1 which supports Aretes calculation. --Tyroxin (talk) 06:27, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
As Tyroxin said, you can apply quickness to at most 5 targets at once, this means the max proc of quickfire is 5. 2 stacks of quickfire per proc so 5x2 = 10 burns.
As far as DPS meters, the status is very clear at this point ( ( that they are legal. I don't follow Brazil at all but I have talked to Arc quite a bit, so I think I have a good understanding of the failings of DPS meters. ArcDPS isn't 100% accurate, but it is accurate and is significantly better for getting data than any other method. You say there are too many variables to find out damage in WvW, but this is the tool that lets you do that. From my personal experience and testing, going to 100% burn duration is very worth it. Arete (talk) 12:08, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

I did a test back in September where i had a necro with staff and i applied ashes of the just and the necro dropped 2 symbolds and i swear i had 2 stacks burning on each golem. However, i just redid the test and now 1 symbol applied 2 stacks burning and the buff was gone. I dont know if something went wrong on my first test or if they nerfed it at some point. However if "Ashes of the Just" works like that now this build is completely inferior to others. Can i delete it or do i need 5 bad ratings first?--Genitor (talk) 19:21, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

You can just delete it or move to basic since its only in testing Arete (talk) 19:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC)